Pond Build (newbie)

[dodgy1]

I will start off by saying hello,

My name is Andy, and I have only just joined this site, I have been trawling through the site for the past couple of days just trying to gather any tips etc that will aid me with my puddle construction (well it will be compared to the ones I have seen on here a credit to you all).

I’m sorry, I know that some, if not all of the questions I’m about ask will have been posted before, but this way I know they are directed towards my build.

First, I will explain my situation, and build plans.
I’m planning on building an 8’ x 5’ x 4’ maybe 5’deep pond. I know in koi terms this very small but my space is limited, my garden is only 11’ wide and 74’ long, but with the patio and shed area, I’m left with about 33’ in length plus the wife wants some area left for plants (she loves gardening), so I’m very limited.

The pond is going to be semi raised 2’ above 2’/3’ below ground. I will be constructing it out of ¾â€Â

[Hardip]

Hi Andy,

I'll take a stab at answering your questions mate, but am also humbly new to the scene

[quote="dodgy1"]The pond is going to be semi raised 2’ above 2’/3’ below ground. I will be constructing it out of ¾â€Â

[dodgy1]

Thanks Hardip,

The side access is just wide enough for a wheel barrow, about an inch spare each side and like an army assault course!!! thanks to a few of my lovely neighbers

I would like to go a bit deeper, but depends on any comments on design and build?

Pumps etc, I have done a lot of reading up on and will be looking at between 1.5 -2 times ph.

Filter space is limited to the width of the pond and based at the end of the pond due to space and wife which will be about 6' wide in total.
Stocking levels not sure on, normal to heavy, depends, dont want to over crowd them.

I had thought about a surface skimmer but not sure if its needed? (no over hanging trees etc.)

Forgot to add will be using a 55w UV due too, not a lot of shade till 4pm.

Andy.

[fisherman]

Hi Andy, welcome to koi quest
I would think twice about using plywood below ground as it would rot and that includes marine ply
If you can it would be better to block build (concrete Blocks) get the lady wife to carry them round for you or you could use a wheel barrow

[dho]

Would definitely like to see the pond a little bit deeper. On the other hand plywood sheets comes in 8'x4' so I am not too sure if I would be that tempted to go any deeper.

I would forget about the base of ply in your case as I think it will probably cause more problems in the long run. I would shape the bottom of the pond with a few inches of sand to give you a slop towards your bottom drain. As if you take my advice and do not go for a ply base then you will need to make sure that the sides are really well bolted together. Gazza uses something called unistruct (I think) that is the pretty good for that kind of thing. Failing that a few 6 inch bolts with a few angles should hold it together.

I would line the ply with some kind of underlay, either bought form your local friendly koi dealer or just some old carpets. Don't want any puncture now do we?

I would also make the hole a little bit bigger than the pond, I would say something like 4 to 6 inches on all sides and back fill that will gravel. That way when it rains the water will just drain off without your ply permanently sitting in water. Mind you I have never attempted this before so if anyone got any objections to this then please feel free to rise it as there may be some practical consideration that I have missed.

BTW as you say you have access problems, have you realise how much soil you will be digging out and need disposing of? We are looking at almost 5m3 of soil in the ground and probably about 10 m3 once dug out. Better find somewhere to put that soil or have a couple of skips ready.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

Regards,

David.

[andyb]

Hi Andy

Forget the timber idea ( it would probably cost more than brickwork anyway. )

150mm concrete base

Bring it up in 100mm block work and backfill with concrete, once you are 225 away from finished ground level, bring the rest up in 225mm

Aerated bottom drain

Skimmer

Nexus Easy

Aquamax 10,000

UV

3 KW heater

Fiberglas

Combine skimmer and bottom drain before entry into nexus.

Stick a hiblow 100 on the system and share between nexus & bottom drain.

Keep your pond return quite high ( no more than 450mm below water surface )

Job done

Cost around 5 grand

Do it once - do it right ( be cheaper in the end )

Regards


Andy

[fisherman]

Hi David

I have handed thousands of tons of plywood and you can get them in 5X10 sheets and larger on a special order

[B.Scott]

Don't fee ashamed mate we all have to row with the oars we were given and a small pond is better than none at all. Look at all the loons we have here with growing on tanks of 1000 gallons or less.

Looking at the measurements you gave you pond should me close to 1000 gallons or 4,5 tonnes. Yes it is a bit small but with a sensible stocking level and regular water changes you should be ok.

Don't go beating yourself up over having a liner pond. I have one and am proud to say so. I would be happy to give you a bit of advice on building a pond as you describe. Here in Holland this is a very common method of pond building.

First off some comments on the materials. Many people here use plywood as a retainer walls for their liner ponds. To be sure not and old plywood will do. Commonly we use shuttering board. This is plywood with a black/brown oiled outer layer that is held together with waterproof glue. It is very resistant to rotting and will last much longer than anything else you might try made of wood A second alternative that I used were foam sandwich panels that are used for making cool cells (cuttlebrook made their tosai house out of them) and with a bit of angle iron in the corner then hold quite well.

Before you run out and buy either of these look around and see if you can get some 2nd hand. I have bought both shuttering ply AND sandwich panels 2nd had quite cheaply off the Internet. The sandwich panels I got for free and the 25mm 18-ply shutter-ply were a tenner apiece for ply that was 5'x11'! With ply this size you could go a bit deeper as well.

Realize that when building with this method the wall serves more to keep the edges of the pond from collapsing into the hole rather than retaining the water and shape of the pond. it is extremely important that the back filling of the outside edges between the yard and the wood be done carefully to avoid the walls of the pond being pushed out of shape by the weight of the water of conversely the walls of the pond being forced inwards by the pressure of the back fill.

When making a pond with plywood walls need to be supported with posts ant every seam between two panels and preferably with several in between. It is inadvisable to use treated wood for this purpose as it tend to rot anyway in a very short time. Spend the extra cash and buy tropical hardwood posts that will last as least if not longer than the plywood.
With this kind of pond you don't need a solid bottom. Mine is simply sand with the bottom drain buried in the sand. You my pour a floor if you wish but I see little point What you do need is to make sure the bottom is covered in CLEAN sand and nothing with rocks and pebbles in it.

My one comment is about having the pond raised above the level of the yard 2'. If you have a wood walled pond then as I said before the back fill is what is holding the pond walls in shape. The more you raise the pond above the surface of the yard, the greater the pond will distort and need extra re-enforcing. This is also a weak spot that may fail in the future of wood starts to go soft from moisture and age. I would sat restrict the height to a foot at the most. and I would put an extra layer on the outside along the top to increase the strength.

As far as the liner goes, fold the edge behind in the corners and glue the seam with some of the special mastic they make for epdm rubber. Should this leak then all that happens is you end up with a bubble of water behind the fold but no leak.

[img]http://www.dutchkoi.com/picture-files/deep23.jpg[/img]



A pond from sandwich panels.
[img]http://www.koi.excalibur-nw.com/images/sandwichpond.jpg[/img]




I placed mine horizontally instead of vertically but it is a sort of hybrid as well since I later extended the bottom downwards using shutter board as seen in this picture.
Top (green/black) is sandwich panel
Bottom (grey/black) is sandwich panel

[img]http://www.dutchkoi.com/picture-files/deep12.jpg[/img]




Frame for a small shutter board pond

[img]http://www.koi.excalibur-nw.com/images/betonplexpond1.jpg[/img]



Same pond with ply in place and a portion of the insulation

[img]http://www.koi.excalibur-nw.com/images/betonplexpond2d.jpg[/img]


More height above the yard means more support

[img]http://www.koi.excalibur-nw.com/images/asobepond.jpg[/img]




B.Scott

[dodgy1]

Wow thanks B.Scott my heart is raised again

Fisherman, by using bricks I would loose more space, and pond would shrink in width due to size of garden and the rules laid down by lady wife plus god knows how many trips around alley with bricks would kill me

dho, I was thinking along those lines with the shingle. As for soil, my garden needs leveling and the wife wants raised beds - kill 2 birds with one stone

B.Scott, Thank you for the pictures you have posted, I see that the main support posts run vertical on most of the pictures, I was thinking of having them run horizontally every foot from top to bottom, well at least on my plans they are with support blocks in between each run.
If I treated the board with wood preserver would this prolong its life by few years?
What size is the pond in pics 4 & 5?

A rough design of what I was thinking using 2 x 4's


[img]http://usera.imagecave.com/dodgy1/Copyofponddesign.jpg[/img]

Thanks Andy

[B.Scott]

Unless you use marine ply it will delaminate withing a year or two depending on how wet the ground is. The shuttering board I used is also called Formwork Ply. Mine was left over from a bridge building project and I bought it used.

I did a quick searck in the UK but didn't find much. A search of Dutch sites gives me 10 people selling starting at about 6 quid a sheet! But then I don't know the sites where one would buy such things in the UK.

I think the horizontal members are worthless as you need vertical strength to suport the bit above the ground. Generally you screw it through the sheet into the verticals. Remember the back filled earth is the thing providing the strength. Those horizontals are only needed above ground.

[dodgy1]

Thanks for all the replys chaps, It got me thinking today dangerous thing that , can any one tell me if this idea would work?

Dig said hole, leave enough room to dig a 12" deep pit out, and 9" wide, form a 6" deep collar with cement, then use Hollow Dense Concrete Block with steel rods to build up the 2' above ground fill hollows with cement?
Would this hold a box liner with out collapsing in?


[img]http://usera.imagecave.com/dodgy1/Copyofpond2.jpg[/img]

By doing this, if I had to carry bricks by hand, not so many trips, then use poly slabs to line walls, then the liner?

Thanks Andy

[Kiabosh]

Andy,

Last idea looks most promising!

I'm no expert pond builder but thats similar to the way I built mine.

It's called a "ring beam". Dig out for the wall foundations first - I went 12" wide x 8" deep concrete ring. Next construct the wall off the the foundation.

Once the wall is up then start digging the hole in the middle. (You'll have to accept a ledge around the foundation)

Bear in mind that once you get more than 18" down you're going to hit the substrate. This will be either rock, clay or chalk depending where you live. Anyway this is going to be tough going and you won't want to use the spoil in your garden....you're probably going to have to get rid. I used 11 skips!!!

Finally I would not use a welded liner, I don't think you'll get the walls straight enough, in fact a slight taper to the bootom will stop the walls collapsing in on you while you're digging.

I'd also forget about the poly sheeting, just use plenty of felt straight onto the soil and put the liner on top. You will get creases but if done carefully these will not be too obvious.

Hope this helps & I look forward to seeing others post their ideas.

Oh by the way, this is how I did it and the ponds now in it's sixth year with no leaks or cracks. with hindsight, I'd have block built the whole thing and had it fibreglassed but I didn't know that then!!!!!

Cheers

Carl

[dodgy1]

Thanks Kiabosh,
This way sounds a lot better than my first idea and a bit more solid
Any more input? and any suggestions on what filter to go for?

Thanks

[Jagger]

Like this?

[img]http://www.jagger.plus.com/pond/collarconstruction.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.jagger.plus.com/pond/2.100UK(2,521USG).JPG[/img]

[emmaandaj]

Hi,

Welcome to the forum! My first pond was made of wood (above ground), had to do it this way as only had a small corner to fit it in. I made it from plywood and supported it with battons-it seemed to do the job. Would definately advise you to take the last idea as blocks will last where wood will eventually rot away-you will kick yourself if this happens! My neighbour is re building his pond and has borrowed my cement mixer to build his new pond with a colar and blocks! Cant be of much help with the building side as ive not built with blocks before-however this is the place to get the answers!

As for filtration-id go with the suggested eazy pod-they are so simple to clean with hardly any maintence, plus the water will be nice and clear You could always add a shower for extra filtration-can be made for a few quid out of stacking boxes etc or you could speak to Bob nicely for a 'proper job!'

Hope this helps-keep us posted-we like pictures!

Cheers Andy