Chloramine T & new additions

[DaveB]

Hello All. Against all possible common sense, I could not resist purchasing a number of very large high quality koi from a koi enthusiast who is leaving the hobby. Thees koi were not in the best condition and due to not being prevoiusly heated have been sitting on the bottom of his pond. I feel if the koi were placed in a pond with excelent water parameters and heated to a temperature of 20 degs plus for 3 to 4 months, they have every chance of healing ok. After transportation to my pond( I know I know no quarentine big risk) The koi have taken a huge setback in terms of stress, however all koi have now settled in and all but one is feeding well.

My approach to sorting out these wounds was to pp the pond followed by a antibiotics ( baytril) and following Duncans guidelines to topically treatng. After reading that you guys prefer Chloramine T for clearing up wounds, I am now considering a course of CT. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Best Regards Dave

[DaveB]

I also forgot to mention that I generally run my pond with a TDS of 75ppm. K.H 2dH G.H 3d.H which I reckon is soft.p.H 7.2. therefore please confirm that for soft water 1 grm per 100 gallons everyday for 3 days( as per Duncans Book) or can I go higher ie 2 grms. Any clarification is much appreciated. Best Regards DaveB

[Gazza]

Hi Dave,

Sounds like you could be in for a bit of a challenge how bad are the wounds did you take any pictures so we can see how bad they are

CT is a great tool to use for these types of things and i am sure if you have a clean system and keep on top of things with some care and attention you will be able to get these fish back to good health. The strength of CT is dependent on how hard your water is and the softer the water the lower the dose if you are going to use CT i would add it once you have treated the fish so cleaner them up and topically treat and seal then add the CT treatment on days 1,2 &3.

The dose rate will be your call you can go stronger as i have myself even in relatively softish water but i was able to keep my eye on things and it was in my QT tank so easy to mess around with. You could also just do the first treatment a bit stronger say 2gm day 1 and them 1gm on days 2 & 3 but this is something you have to be happy with.

Good luck and keep us posted on how things go.

[DaveB]

The koi in question does not show any signs of stress and no areas of raised scales.However she is on occation sulking with clamped fins( not surprised if she is taking in water) I have done a scrape without finding anything. I will try and remember to take some photos when I lift her ( before and after) Underneath is the only area of damage. However I think quite a number of scales may require removing.
I am considering doing the pp prior to the course of CT just incase I have missed anything with the scope namely costia and waiting a few days before starting CT treatment.
Just wondering whether or not M& F would have similar effect cleaning the wounds as CT and do a better job at the costia.
Just an idea but wonder which is the more toxic chemical

AS this is the first time I have tried using CT in this situation and as I am in an area with fairly soft water, then 2gms per 100gal on day one followed by 1grm per 100 gals on days 2& 3 sound like a good call. Also my pond runs with low organics with ORP in the 350mv at p.H 7.2. Not sure if CT is organic dependit like pp. But best to be on the safe side. Regarding the thilusphate for neutralizing ie Chlorine remover, can you tell me which one do I need. My local koi retailer supplies the following
http://www.shinshiro-koi.co.uk/aquasure ... mover.html
anygood ??

[Gazza]

Hi Dave,

Not sure on the other stuff but would not go putting to much in that your not sure of before a treatment as they can all have an effect so stay with the stuff we know works.

If your not sure on any critters may well be worth doing another scrape when you have them up for a treatment and then work out what to use and when

You say she could be taking on water i take it she has a serious wound on the underside so this will defiantly need a good clean out and treating and sealing or it will just get worse. I take it you have no way of rigging up a tank that you could get some good heat into ?

[DaveB]

Gazza mate I think the idea of isolating the koi of 64cm + might not be practical.Unless I use a paddling pool. However to be honest the pOond is already sittng at 20degs C so hopefully when the good weather finally arrives I could quite easilly take it up to 24 degs C with heat pump and boiler combined. I appreciate that it is a shame to subject my other stock unecessary chemicals , However I did way this all up before buying and decided it was well worth taking the risk.I am quite hopefull once she has settled in for a week and I start treatments she will do well. I am only assuming with the damage she has underneath that she will be taking in extra water. There is no sign of raised scales or dropsy or stress for that matter. She just hasn,t settled in as quickly as the other two koi and started eating yet.

[Gazza]

Hi Dave,

64cm its just a Nisai Just thought i would ask just in case as if its bad and you could of isolated you could go the full works 27c and CT and salt it works wonders.

Yes i am sure you will soon get the fish back to a healthy state and as you say with the weather warming up and being in better water this will all be on the plus side.

[DaveB]

Hi Guys
Just thought I would update you guys.
After the 4 new koi in question had a week settling in, and after scraping each koi and finding nothing. But 2 not feeding I decided to PP the pond 1.5mg per 220 gals and a futher 0.25mg to maintain the purple for 4 hours ( ORP 516mv dodgy meter maybe ??? as water went brown after only 2 hours) Anyway it has taken the koi a couple of days get over it and look a bit better today,but still not feeding.
However the one koi which has the worse damage has the very first signs of fin rot, which does not appear to be getting any worse overnight.( No white areas just raggy about 5 mm long.) My thoughts are that is quite possible it had arrived in this condition and was not noticed.
My initial thoughts were to treat these koi this weekend with topical treatment, a course of anti biotic and CT. However I am now considering dosing the pomd with 0.3% salt and leaving the koi a few more days before carrying out the other treatments to give longer between pp treatment and CT.I would not normally use salt however I think in this situation ( having no hospital facilties) would be a good idea.Short term
Best Regards Dave

[Gazza]

Hi Dave,

I would never put salt into my pond unless i had major issues as it takes so long to get the stuff back out again but would go along the lines of getting the fin rot under control. I would start by cutting off all the bad stuff and treating with MFR1 then sealing and then using the CT too help the wound and lower the bacteria in the pond. I would also raise my temperature into the 20c's to also help the fish as they recover so much better at higher temperature.

[DaveB]

Hi guys Decided I have waited long enough before treating the underneath wound on the sanke as she looked as though the tail rot was progressing. On further inspection this does not seem to be the case, however the wound underneath definately has got worse and needed treating. I have managed to take some photos which I am having difficulty uploading them.




The Finrot was only on thelower part of the tail and looked old with no white areas, so trimmed cauterised using 3% H202 Mechuchrome & sealer. That was the easy part over.As this was the first time I had inspected the koi properly under aneathetic, I did not initially reallise how deep the wound was although some healing had taken place. My thoughts are that there is a dead scale in there somewhere and needs to be removed,This has caused an ulcer/hole big enough to get a small finger in. As much as I tried I could not find any loose scales, so perhaps the scale is completely gone together with the scale pocket too.I really tried to get in there and give it a good clean.Only time will tell whether I need to do more work. My gut feeling is a lot more. It may be necassary to completely remove all the infamed tissue in order to get at the heart of the problem. This could leave a really massive hole if I do.I could really do with a second opinion here on the next course of action. I Then proceeded to topically treat with mecuchrome and orasive powder and Lock & seal. Followed by a first injection of Baytril 10%. I think she is in for a bumpy ride.

[Manky Sanke]

There you are Dave,

The third is a bit out of focus but I hope this helps.

P1000356.jpg (21.25 KiB) Viewed 2171 times

P1000357.jpg (16.88 KiB) Viewed 2171 times

P1000358.jpg (14.13 KiB) Viewed 2171 times

[Gazza]

Hi Dave,

Yes it does look a bit nasty and its always best to get rid of any dead and decaying tissue or scales even if it does make the area bigger as its dying anyway so will still die off and will need treating next time. As long as you can get out all the bad stuff and clean it and give it a good clean and dig right in when cleaning to make sure its nice and clean. Then topically treat it and pack the wound with the powder and sealer making sure it dries out before returning the fish to the pond.

Good luck mate and lets hope the treatment and AB's do the job and one thing for sure your got the right stuff for the job now.

[DaveB]

Thanks Guys
I will keep you posted on developments.Good job I have got plenty of powder. Wher am I going wrong with the photos???apart from the photographer. I will try to do better next time

[DaveB]

One of the other koi has damaged underneath the pec fin, After cleaning it now looks as though the leading ray is broked at the base. So I am now wondering due to the movement of the fin this will not allow healing to take place. I will give it a go but I might have to take the leading ray off altogether and let the next one thicken up. I idid this once before when trying to stitch a tail fin and eventually ended up removing the top ray alltogether. After a while you just cant tell unless you look very closely.



Sorry about the photo Do I need to resize it to work. Best Regards Dave

[koicarpus]

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