Chloramine T & new additions

[Gazza]

Hi Dave,

I would do everything the same including applying the Mercurochrome and then when that has dried try your past on top and then the sealer making sure the wound is clean and free of any dead or dying "stuff" first.

See if you can get a close up on the wound and the "thing" we are not sure of so we can have a good look at whats going on next time you have her out.

[DaveB]

Gazza
Thanks for that. The second photo In the last time I treated the koi was taken only four inches away but I will get even closer next time if you think it will help,however in all honesty if we don,t know what it is by now I don,t think getting any closer is going to help. If it is not the cartlage Duncan is talking about, then I am clueless as I definately don,t think it is a dead scale but of course I could be wrong. I will carry out as you have suggested but don,t think there is anything dead in there now after the 3% H202 treatment and now worry about upsetting any new skin which is trying to heal. The paste I have made sticks great to skin( tried it on the back of my hand) and is almost inpossible to wash off with water and now wonder whether to leave the mercurochrome out. Orabase paste was always fantastic for mouth ulcers. Better in my view in these modern mouth ulcer remedies. Unfortunately it tastes and feels awfull when in your mouth.
Just a few thoughts which are now going around in my head. The koi in question always seems to perk up the day after the injection and is swimming around with the other koi so I suppose is always agood sign.fingers crossed Dave

[DaveB]

day 7 prior to 4th injection.
here are the photos.



I now think due to the positioning of the wound the thing which sticking out now looks to be the ventral fin muscle.( I think you mentioned this at the beginning Gazza)I think quite a lot of healing has taken place and the hole is starting to fill. The redness I hope is residue of mercurochrome.I now wonder how many more times I should seal it and wonder whetherto let nature take its own coarse after the last & final injection.
The koi was ( prior to last injection) quite happily swing around and even came up for food yesterday.
I decided to give a IP injection and give the Pectoral muscles a break.Which went really well so will try this method again on the other side for the final injection.Best Regards Dave

[kimr]

Hi Dave

I have to agree that healing does look like it is taking place and it looks to be doing really well, like you I would wonder now how far to go with the topical treatment. Cleaning and treating is only going to disturb the new skin growth, but I am sure Gazza or Duncan will know the best route to take here. Knowing when to treat and when to leave well alone is a very fine line when you have healing taking place like that. Also a lot has to do with the conditions the Koi is being kept in and the general health of the Koi, she must be determined to survive To get it where it is already you have done a great job lets just hope this continues and she makes a full recovery

[Gazza]

Hi Dave,

I think it may well be connected to the fin and the wound does indeed look like it is getting better and less angry which is great.

Its always a fine line on how often to re-treat a wound like this and i think perhaps after the last injection i would try and leave it a bit and observe the fish and see how things go. You could always leave it a bit and then instead of knocking her out just have a look in a bowl and hopefully see its healing and set her back.

[DaveB]

I suppose its all about now takeing a day at a time. I have considered continuing with another one or two injections if need be just to make sure I get the job done. This is something I have tried in the past and worked well with the very same type of wound. I gave 7 injections in total. However the last two were for slightly smaller amounts and with 2 and 3 clear days inbetween injections and treatment. Again I will monitor the situation on a daily basis and keep you posted. What are yout prefered topical treatment in a bowl without anethetic ?? Thanks guys

[Gazza]

Hi Dave,

I don't do much in a bowl to topically treat unless its something easy and a smallish fish but it can be handy for having a look at a would without upsetting the fish to much and seeing if you think it needs more treatment.

[Duncan]

Dave

is there any chance you can get better pictures mate? i would love to help but i need to be able to see whats what first

dunc

[DaveB]

Dave

is there any chance you can get better pictures mate? i would love to help but i need to be able to see whats what first

dunc

Hi Duncan
In all Honesty, I am not sure what you are after. I am no photographer but have tried to get as close as possibleThe last couple of photos were taken within 12" of the koi. I have read and re re read your book to help me along the way. At first I thought it was the cartlage you mentiond about avoiding when giving IP injection. But as you can see from the second last photo the bit sticking out is in line with the ventral fin and is just in front of it, so now think it is muscle.I am now at the advanced stages of treatment and hopefully I have made the right decision in leaving this bit alone and not trying to remove it. Hopefully with a bit more TLC she will make a full recovery.I will continue to post photos and hopefully my photography skills will improve. Best Regards Dave

[Duncan]

sorry Dave i never saw these latest pictures maybe because i was sent a link to this problem

anyway what your looking at is the internal part of the ventral fin ( in most cases there is nearly as much fin inside the koi as outside) we want this to skin over and the way we do this is with Chloramine T

whats your water hardness like? and do you have a quarantine we could treat this fish in save treating a whole pond?

dunc

[DaveB]

sorry Dave i never saw these latest pictures maybe because i was sent a link to this problem

anyway what your looking at is the internal part of the ventral fin ( in most cases there is nearly as much fin inside the koi as outside) we want this to skin over and the way we do this is with Chloramine T

whats your water hardness like? and do you have a quarantine we could treat this fish in save treating a whole pond?

dunc

Cheers for the input and unfortunately I have no hospital facilities. I will recap what has previously happened. At the very beginning In view of what I thought were signs of fin rot I salted the pond 0.3% ( I know I know it will take me for ever to get it out of the system) However due to the severity of the wound I thought I would hopefully take the load off the kidneys. I asked Gazza for the dosage rates for a 3 day treatment of CT for my water G.H. 4, K.H 2 p.H 7.3. We came up with a plan Day 1, 2gms per 100gallons and days 2 & 3 1gram/100g.
I also discussed this with my local koi dealer and explained everying to him including the possibility of fin rot. One or two other koi were also showing signs of fin rot too. The local koi dealer has suggested a 3 course treatement of Combat( Lincolnshire Fish help) which today was the last dose.I am sure this has helped the koi , such as to prevent Fin rot returning.However this has not helped in sealing the wound, or has it??
Rightly or wrongly the steps I have taken have brought me to this point where I am reluctant to use combat and CT at the same time as I do not know what the outcome will be. Perhaps if I wait a week and see what developes then it would be safe to use CT.
Best Regards Dave

[DaveB]

Ok guys
I am now begining to regret the descision in the past regarding not using CT. After takng several scrapes over the past 2 weeks ( thinking the koi possibly had costia) I have now found 2 to 3 flukes on each on a couple of koi. I am now wondering whether to try using CT in an attempt to both rid the koi of these flukes and seal the wounds as suggested by Duncan & Gazza. I don,t think I have a fluke infestation as all koi are not showing signs or have these parasites when scraped. Quite possibly when using Combat in the past this has reduced these parasites to low numbers anyway. What are your thoughts on this development.I will probably need to wait 5 to 7 days before treatment.Due to adding combat. I think this might be a better approach to treatment than say Fluke M, Fluke solve or superverm.
Best Regards Dave

[Duncan]

dave

sent you a PM mate
dunc

[DaveB]

Much appreciated Duncan. I will wait a few days to carry out your suggested CT treatments.( Recent treatment of Combat) I have bicarb to raise the p.H and K.H I also have calcium chloride and epsom salts to raise G.H if you think this will help. I still have between 0.2 and 0.3% salt and is slowly being diluted. Should I allow this to happen or should I maintain 0.3% salt for a while longer.
Best REgards Dave

[Duncan]

Much appreciated Duncan. I will wait a few days to carry out your suggested CT treatments.( Recent treatment of Combat) I have bicarb to raise the p.H and K.H I also have calcium chloride and epsom salts to raise G.H if you think this will help. I still have between 0.2 and 0.3% salt and is slowly being diluted. Should I allow this to happen or should I maintain 0.3% salt for a while longer.
Best REgards Dave

allow this to carry on diluting the salt wont add much to what you are seeking

dunc