Simply Koi and More Koi

Hi Mark,

I have decided to give her the week to see how the natural repair progresses, and as she is swimming ok, and the would has healed over white, all is well, apart from the break!

I want to have her out for an inspection at the weekend, and once I have posted the pics, got further feedback, decide if I continue to leave alone, or intervene further.

The swimming motion as she passes by the window does indicate your right in respect of the rays being apart from the body, and I am unsure if the superglue treatment is the best option, as if i think of gluing two recently healing surfaces together, I see tearing flesh....

Lets see what the weekend reveals eh?

Mark

Update on progress. Koi is happy, eating well, and active, so on overview ok.

Visually I have thought the amount of healing (whiting over) suggested I am on the right path leaving well alone, but a photo from the window suggests she needs more attention.

The healing seems to be progressing, but I now have secondary fungal infection to deal with so she will be cleaned out again tomorrow night with the photo's to demonstrate progress.

I do need to decide if there is need for another set of antibiotics - happy for thoughts on this, please.

Mark

Other side

Wow what an improvement you have done a great job there just a light clean and treatment and you should be nearly there.

I agree .... hold off on the AB, light clean up, then Mercurochrome, allow to dry and pop back in the pond

Thanks guys, nice to hear I am going in the right direction!

Mark

Hi Mark,

I would say that is defiantly heading in the right direction and i think i just do a little clean up and see how it goes as that looks to be healing very well.

OK Guys, is this a lesson of "if in doubt get um out!" or what?

Only 24hrs from the last pics and here is proof that I still have a battle on my hands....

I think its incredible the difference observed from a casual glance through the window and a close up, out of the water.

I dont need to say I have great concerns still as the two scales with the fungal infection are least of my problems.

The other side shows similar signs of infection still, and subsequently I have spent a good 20mins cleaning away anything looking necrotic, utilising the PH ointment and trying to seal as well as possible (still expecting it to fall off ) and decided I had better run another course of injections of baytril as the koi looks heavily infected still.

Surface of the original hole is closing up, but the heavy redness and the bodyward direction of the attack is causing my concern.

So here we go again.....

The actual tail split wound looks better mate. However get those two green scales out - if they even feel slightly rough to the touch then they are dead and need to come out. They will IMO be holding back the healing and possible causing the infection to spread if they are infected / dead.

Personally i would have held off on the AB's or maybe taken a culture sample and get it grown to make sure you target the right AB. See your still on Baytril - would a swap out to Amikicin or Zinacef be an option?

Greg,

All dodgy scales removed as part of the clean up and re-treat. The photo is the 'before', and I have posted plenty of the 'after treatments' pics.

I will have to consider a visit to the vet with these other antibiotics in mind - I may need to refer to the 'Bible' when I visit.

I shall ask Dunc to comment on which particular one to tackle, or even better as per your other thread, see if Dunc can talk us through the culture sample taking in conjunction with my local vet.

Anyway, back in the pond for now, hoping to see some movement in the right direction.

Mark

Hi Mark,

Although it look much better in the pond than when out i still think it has healed a fair bit and the actual wound is smaller as if its started to repair. I think the clean up and seal was the right thing to do and would be interesting to hear Dunc's thoughts on this.

hi Mark

where to begin?

i said from the start this was gonna be a toughy. I did have a look yesterday but im trying to get some rest from recent events and the work i put in over the weekend and even thought i could be wrong and you were the right side of it, but if you look the fungal scales are evident even on that photo too

i ain't got time to go back and see what i said at the start but im pretty sure it went along the line you will have to open this up so its not a closed crevis your treating in other words instead of the infection being a tight deep crevis its a wide and more shallow crevis by comparison

whats happening your only cleaning the top and for a while thats good enough to effect what looks like a repair but then the deeper rooted infection contaminate the surface area

ive said before many times you cant curse whats already dead and deep in there, you have necrotic tissue it got there precisly because of the nature and configuration of the wound its going deep rather than wide

whats happening is, the infection is deep rooted and you cant get to it to the extend you need to. This is why i sent you the PHS ointment, once its well cleaned out ram and pack that stuff in there and seal it off as best you can.

the mistake your making is your trying to preserve the asthetic looks of the fish after any healing is complete its too late for that , your also worrying about the bones/rays trust me they are not joined to one another in the sence you think, just as the tiny bone sections that make up your finger are are only joined by ligaments and sinue

so you need to pull these scales now, then open the wound on the peduncle side make it less steep and shallow it out give it a great clean get some H2O2 in there for a while, sod the scales if any gets on them you can deal with that later and ont worry about antibiotics at the momenets you seen the power this fish has to heal itself if it gets a clean break

hope i have explained this ok cuz its early and im tired

dunc

Dunc,

Hearing you loud and clear.

I am thinking its time to call in the cavalry.... as I posted before, the 'extreme cut and carve' seems beyond my abilities.... for now.

Hopefully post more once I have 'grown some' and got this sorted....

Mark

Well the Cavalry aka Simon Norse arrived this evening and showed a 'Health Course paper qualified only' amateur such as myself how this problem should have been tackled to start with.

Only problem is we (Me & Andy Finch) were transfixed watching and learning no pics got taken!

However, two major lessons learnt -

1 I had not been aggressive enough, and didnt use gauze to clean out the mess, ensuring scale pockets were cleaned out, prior to sealing.

2 The technique I used for removing scales was wrong, I needed to cut across the scale to open it up and slide the scale from within its sheath/scale pocket rather than ripping it out with tweezers.

I know its too early to comment, and time will tell if the koi does any better, or whether the removal of the tail is still likely, but I feel Simon has given it a much better chance, as I have seen every crevice cleaned out, and know how to do the same myself in future.

Big thank you again to Simon, a pint of your favorite tipple (and the rest) is secured for the next opportunity to indulge....

Mark

Well here is an update, but mixed feelings still here as the original wound site has closed up virtually completely, but another scale required removal (photo is post removal of dead scale) and I have Mercurochrome and lock and sealed again, as despite the colour was considering the tail to be looking better..... however, the redness in the tail and battle with another scale further along the tail tube lead me to think I still have a problem.

However, I consider the deep red colour to indicate blood clotting around an area thats constantly in use, so I hope the natural health of the koi is going to pull this one round.

When we (the cavalry!) cleaned it all out it was a thorough and deep clean, and I am loathed to start scraping out again without a second opinion.

The koi is active, feeding and recovering from the sedative far to quickly for me to believe she is a weak koi, so hoping she still proves me right here.....

As usual, wish I had taken a photo first, during or after but she has been treated again and is back in the pond swimming again.

I have cleared everything out again, and as I was still concerned with the original wound site, cleaned out back to bare cartilage again, left HP to eat at the crape between the rays and cleared out, PH ointment, merch and lock and seal but expecting to have out on Saturday as the stuff only lasts five minutes on the tail.

Following advice from Simon to keep regular clean up sessions going to give her a chance to heal, and thats the plan now, not rely on her magically healing herself.

On a good note, there was plenty of evidence of healing, just certainty that the original site is infected, with gray around the site, not white.

Accepting now that if this current regimen doesnt work, will have to cut away part of the tail.

Giving it a couple of weeks, then will decide.

Mark