Understanding "Aeromonas Alley"

[oldgit]

Hi
Gazza your last post not much different from what i was going to post but ofcourse you tell a story better .
Before heating i found the same problems sulking on the btm,this would then produce sore bellies and often uclers.
Once heated i was told or read,cant remember that 13c was a good temp to keep pond at.Anything under that the fish inmune system was not up 100% and the bad bugs would start to invade.I kept to this for the next 9 years not going below 13c and never got one ucler and no problems going into spring.
Untill this winter i decided like duncan to let the fish have a winter and stop feeding for a month.So the temp started to go down they still wanted food but one by one the fish started to sulk on the btm.They would come up once i was by pond,but watching from a distance they would sulk and within a couple of weeks being below 10c stared flashing/flicking.
So i started to worry and started raising the temp again slowly 0.5 every few days.They still werent happy.i did scrape a couple but found nothing.Still decided to give a treatment of PP.Within 2 days of treatment and temp above 13c the fish and more active more hungry than ever.
I dont think i will be giving the fish any more cold winters,maybe just cut the feeding down or none for a month.

Darren

[Gazza]

Hi Darren,

Thanks for you kind words but its all guesswork you know

Its amazing just what a little difference in temperature makes on our fish and the problems and issues we can end up with

One thing i didn't say was i actually don't feed during the winter or i should say my winter period as i keep the temperature and food going in even into December and depending how cold it gets this is normally near Christmas when i drop the temperature down and put the covers on and stop feeding altogether. My fish have not had any food and only recently on the warm days we had did they get a few pellets and that was because the temperature was higher than the stat and it will be like this for a few more weeks until it warms up a bit before they start getting some small feeds.

[Brockp]

Hi girls & guys;

I also like Gazza, before I started taking Koi keeping seriously (before I became addicted) I had also, by observation, noticed that my fish were at their happiest during the winter months at about 12 deg. My heater is just before my filter and I have the temp sensor in the filter K1 set at 13/14 this means my pond with covers on stays pretty steady at 11 – 12. The fish are very happy never lying on the bottom and always pleased to see me. Now I know why!

Keeping the filter at this temp allows me to give my fish a little food when they are foraging during the winter and the water parameters stay rock solid. I cannot like Gazza get the low tds my water here in Hampshire is really liquid chalk so unless I go to RO I am stuck with a ph of 8.4 and a tds of about 240. The good news I never get a pH crash!

So do we have a consensus statement from this group that says something like;

“Unless we have the cash and facilities to heat our ponds to 20+ degrees C all the year round we recommend the best compromise between cost and Koi well being is to use our heaters to provide a stable water temperature with lows of 12 deg C during the winter months”?

What we haven’t discussed is how rapidly we ramp it up in the spring (and when do we start) and how quickly we let in fall in the autumn? and when do we start?

There is also the other question of what do we do in the summer (ambient above 16) do we use our heaters to get the pond up to 20+ or do we just let the English (sorry Kai-Boy) dictate our pond temperature?

Peter

[Brockp]

Hi Duncan;

"The other thing is those bacterial dip slides will be measuring all bacterial species so are no indication of the presence or growth of Aeromonas it’s just a general indicator and certainly a large % will be harmless and sometimes useful bacteria." (quote Duncan)

I have a supplier now of selective media dip slides so am tracking total colony forming units ( CFUs ) pseudomonas and aeromonas CFUs and coliform CFUs....doing it once a week and noting average temps. Big question is what I would do if the Aeromonas CFU count rose dramatically for whatever reason.

I know what I would do but I wonder what other people thing they would do if they knew that suddenly the viable aeromonas colony county in their pond had risen dramatically lets say by 200% ?

Peter

[boogatee]

Well, my experience is a little different .... for the last two years (09-10) I've not heated between November and March, I've also not fed between November and March. I let the pond temps fall to wherever the ambient temperatures takes it. I do however, carry-on doing water changes (minimum 10%) and clean my filter weekly.

Over the last three days I've slowly raised temps from 6°C to 10°C and then over the weekend I'll take it to 12°C and hold it there,till the ambient catches up and then I use my heater to follow it up to 20°C where it will stay until the end of the season. In the middle of summer the pond may be at 22ish °C but my heater wont go past 20, thus prevent any drop below 20°C

Two years ago I figured that since water is cheaper than electricity, I would experiment with letting the temps fall and keeping my water clean ..... and as I'm not feeding, my TDS magically got better than the TDS of the supply water (I'm not sure of why it did, but it did). The net result is that I've not had any bacterial problems as a result of low temps and my koi living in the 'alley' for a month or two.

Considering aeromonas infections (not the alley but the infection ), I think the really confusing thing is, why it happens in some ponds and not in others. I've seen it on koi in both immaculate ponds and on koi living in sewers and vive versa.... and I've seen it on koi in heated ponds and on koi living in unfiltered holes in the middle of a garden and vice versa .... and I've also seen it as a result of misuse of chemicals. I really wish it was more balck and white than just a simple temp range.

[Duncan]

ok Peter, now im really intrigued

i want to know what media they use that guarantees that gram neg rods of say aeromonas ""only"" colonise the strip and not say pseudomonas and vicky virky ?? since they both love carbon.. but as i have said Aeromonas can operate in two completely different environments but i'll bet one is prefered and produces better reproduction that the other, i'll have to get my reference stuff out! these have got to have been developed for something other than koi

the media used to culture bacteria is usually not that host specific and what of temperature control once the strip has been removed as the twop species will usually operate in a different temp window?

yes you could say you have made my ears prick up , and if this is the case it must put a price premium on the strip

[Brockp]

Duncan

I ordered them from a web supplier and in the end had to phone up to find out which was which as they came without instructions. I will get back in touch with them and ask them to send me so blurb and get permisson to post it.

Peter

PS the suppliers were; http://www.rmsupply.co.uk/Dipslides.htm and from http://store.rmsupply.co.uk/index.php?m ... x&cPath=21

Peter

[Graham.]

Hope no one objects to me bumping this up, not only a very informative and interesting read but also appropriate for this time of year.

Thanks to those that had written on the above.

Graham

[Gazza]

Hi Graham,

Not at all mate its always good to bring these types of topics back now and then as they are very important and as you say we are coming up to the time when we start to lower the pond temperatures so well worth a read.

[Koi Man Dave]

Hi Gazza

At 12 degrees do you still feed the fish with wheat germ throughout winter and if so how often do you feed them, the only reason I ask is because I have just installed a heater and was looking at keeping it at 10 degrees having read Duncan's comments and yours I think I will crank it up the additional 2 degrees as I cannot see that it will cost much more to run it at 12 degrees and well worth the money for the extra precaution.
At least it will keep the immune system ticking nicely.
I feel if it helps the fish to be in better health to prevent bad bacteria having the upper hand then it's worth running the cost of a heater hence my decision to install one in the first instance.
Apologies for swaying the subject slightly guys.

[Gazza]

Hi Dave,

Yes i think its much safer at 12c and if you way up the cost of losing a fish its a no brainer i think

I never feed wheatgerm and my fish get feed heavy through summer and right up to the end of the year and i stop feeding and bring the temperatures down around New Years day. Then they don't get fed till the weather starts to warm up nicely when i then begin to bring up the pond temperature and start the food off gently at first.

[Koi Man Dave]

Thanks for the info Gazza

I wasn't sure if you run your heater all through winter hence the reason I asked regarding feeding, right so I get this right I take it you run the heater until new years day then I take it you turn it down gradually until you reach a point of turning the heater off, or do you still leave the heater on at a set temperature, apologies for the questions as its the first time I have used a heater .
As previously I covered the pond let nature take it course and checked them every few days.

[Gazza]

Hi Dave,

Yes at the end of the year i drop the temp down to 12c and stop feeding and also i do cover the pond as even at 12c the boiler would be on a lot

Yes even with the temperature set at 12c the boiler still fires up to keep the pond at 12c but its not to bad and at least i feel the fish are safe and happy

Don't worry about the questions thats what we are here for

[Koi Man Dave]

Thanks for the info Gazza,

I will give it a go at 12 degrees unfortunately mine is on the electric so I will have to stop the wife from watching the soaps to keep the electric bill down
Once again thanks for the support.

[Gazza]

Hi Dave,

Soaps i must admit i am lucky my wife is OK with the pond and doesn't mind wearing her coat indoors