RO & Anything RO Related

[Gazza]

Hi Guys,

So as we are off and running i thought i would do a post on RO and anything to do with RO,i think we all know what it is but i think many have misgivings of the use of it and how it can be done or what it will cost so i thought i would put a post up so anyone can ask aways and have a little chat on anything you think is relative or would like to know about RO.

I will kick it off as many of you guys know i have been running RO for many years and the reason is i have very hard water and even after getting my filters spot on i still found my water was to hard IMO for the fish especially if i was ever to start trying to save up for a nice one

So what was the answer i asked myself many years ago and thats when my journey started in the wonderful world of RO or sometimes not as i do tend to mess about a bit and found i could trash membranes faster then i could get them delivered My reason for this was many to be honest after having pond No1 not perform at all and having any issue seem to take a long time to heal even if it was a mark,bump,scratch to fish just not doing what i wanted them to in either condition and growth (this was not just the water but i believe a big part of it) so i was looking for a way to make things better.

To cut a long story short due to a pond problem i decided on a new pond and while building this wanted to look at every avenue possible to make sure the fish would do well and i would get the best potential from them and they would be happy and healthy. With this in mind as the new pond had been built myself and Bob Hart took a sample of my water up to young Duncan who kindly tested it for me as even though i had tested it i think Duncan wanted to make sure before he explained how rubbish my water was and i should perhaps keep tench or something along those lines

OK i said so the way forward is this RO stuff which we had been talking about for some time but i had no idea

So this is where i was now looking at trying something that just sounded so bizarre and was going to cost me a fortune and i had no idea if i was correct in going this way or not because back then there was no info on it and not many people going the RO route....we was like a bunch of misfits as all the "proper dealer info" would say you need to keep a stable PH and a higher LH will enable you to do this what was i thinking

So there i was now looking at trying to source and RO unit or the equipment and trust me even that was doing my head in i had some many things and most of all how expensive was this going to be and of course the waste water aspect and i am on a meter so plenty to consider.

So those who do RO and those who don't i am sure there are many questions from how much water they waste down to even bent fish would you run one or not and what are the reasons you do or don't

[Brek]

Great idea, I have just started down this route myself, I have configured my system in serial and no get waste to ro of 50/50, however the pump which is set to auto reverse 4 times a day will now only be doing the first membrane, is that right?, also as it producing pretty much double what I need, If I take one of them out of circuit how do I make sure it doesn't deteriorate before I need to use it?

[Gazza]

Hi Brek,

What do you mean by the pump reversing 4 times a day ?

How good/bad these units work depends a lot on how hard your water is that coming in so a base point is needed what is your incoming supply ?

What flow restrictors do you have on the waste as this is what will give the restriction to push a bit more through the membranes to give more product than waste ?

[Brek]

when you turn the pump off on mine it flushes the membrane so I have a timer to switch it off 4 times a day, I am using a push fit tap on the waste outlet to create pressure, no idea if its doing anything though, want I want to do is take one of the 100 gall membranes out of the system as I am generating more RO than I need.

[Gazza]

Hi Brek,

How does it flush correctly when you turn off the pump and if you have any type of restriction on the waste line

You can remove one of the membranes but you will not get very much water from a single 100 gpd membrane especially in the winter how much water do you need and what is the unit producing

[Brek]

its when it turns back on it flushes, and when they were in paralell they both got flushed now they are serial linked I can't see how the second one can be, unless I am missing the obvious.
I need 360 liters a day, my system is chucking out 720 liters a day, I was thinking about flushing the second membrane with RO water and then using the seals to keep it air tight to store it, as I read you need to keep RO membranes wet. My pond is tiny at 1500 gals, so with a 50/50 mix will completely change the water every 9 days in my pond.

[greg]

Brek,

Seriously i wouldn't change the set-up. IMO you are near Nirvana with a complete water change every 9 days (it won't be though as you will be changing a percentage of RO water out aswell).

You not on a meter?

[greg]

OK,

Before we get sidetracked i think best to start at the beginning and that to me is why to choose RO?

To me this involves starting at the beginning (basics) and these are....

Koi's natural body chemistry.

Koi as we know adjust themselves to their surroundings. To my understanding the ideal range for koi in terms of body chemistry is PH7 - 7.5. They can adjust outside of this of course and over a period of time will adapt to PH of up to PH9 and as low as PH6.5 - BUT - there are issues attached to both these ends of the scales. The higher PH (9) has complications with the way it reacts with Ammonia - as the PH of a pond rises so does the toxicity of any residual ammonia but not just in a climbing traditional scale. It is exponential so assuming (for the sake of explanation only) a PH7 has a toxicity level of zero - a PH 8 pond any residual ammonia will be 10 TIMES more toxic - then a pond PH9 would be 100 TIMES more toxic - now to me is the key.

You see koi in ponds with higher PH which often have slight red veining on the koi and this is them reacting to the environment they are in. I also think this is the reason you see koi from really low PH ponds suffer slightly in shows as its not the koi themselves or the actual PH change, or even stress (as stress is a symptom not a cause) - it is IMO that fact that the koi have been taken out of a well filtered pond with a nice neutral PH and then put into a vat with quite a high stocking level (compared to the pond) and then water changes carried out every 2 - 4hrs, very little aeration and filtration.

Now the Ammonia does build up in the vats - i have asked several times to have it tested at shows after looking at my koi to be told its 0.25. 0.3 etc etc and the team carry out a water change and within a few minutes the koi's look improves. Its the Ammonia i'm convinced.

Finally to add to this - you hear the words - koi grow better in RO water etc. They do IMO (based upon my own 12month mini trial) but this is mainly to do with the Ammonia aspects and also the fact you have bought the koi in line with its Natural PH so it isn't:-

i). Fighting Ammonia off that is more toxic than it could be

ii). Constantly trying to adjust its Natural body chemistry to suit its environment

This free's the koi up to concentrate on condition and growth. Meaning the koi process more of their food input to these aspects rather than the reasons above.

[boogatee]

look at the Cuttlebrook photo gallery ... Haijiro at Nisai (17 months old) and 58cm, grown in pH 8.3 (chaps that's almost 60cm and grown in cement )

I submit that the growth rates in UK, high pH, mud ponds are as good as growing in RO. Therefore, could good genetics and clean water be more of a benefit than RO? ... just offering an alternative point of view

Gazza, I hope I'm not pushing this topic in a direction you didn't intend. .... and Dunc, n.b. I did say 'growth'

[Brek]

no not on a water meter, OK will leave alone, It is very odd why my tap water chemistry is so different, normally tds out of the tap is in the 180-200 range, now its at 140, so adding 50/50 blends leaves me with 70 tds (plus whatever the fish waste adds), and a KH DH of 4 with added bicarb, now if I'd tested the water before buying the RO might of held off a while , as one of the UF membrane filters might have done the job for me in the short term. PH at mo is bang on 7 PH.

[Gazza]

Hi Chris,

No mate thats what this place is all about

[eds]

look at the Cuttlebrook photo gallery ... Haijiro at Nisai (17 months old) and 58cm, grown in pH 8.3 (chaps that's almost 60cm and grown in cement )

I submit that the growth rates in UK, high pH, mud ponds are as good as growing in RO. Therefore, could good genetics and clean water be more of a benefit than RO? ... just offering an alternative point of view

Gazza, I hope I'm not pushing this topic in a direction you didn't intend. .... and Dunc, n.b. I did say 'growth'

There's a big dollop of genetic influsence in there though Chris. Hajiro grow (and leap) like nutters, so getting them to 60cm is easier than doing it with a go-sanke (not to say it's easy, just easier!), just like it is with chags or other less inbred varieties. I think as well that the people I know seem to rate RO as keeping the growth rates going after nisai and with good skin condition. Growth alone in the first couple of years isn't the sole aim.

Having said that I don't know that RO is 'the' answer either. I would love to know what aspect of using RO is the part that gives the effects people see. Is it just that you're adding water that's much 'purer', with less nitrates, metals and other chemicals in into the pond and therefore it seems to dilute the dissolved substances in the pond more? Is it a factor of pH (in which case will dosing acids give the same effects?)? Or is it simply that the TDS itself is the factor that makes the difference?

It would be great to be able to conduct a range of scientific experiments to determine this but we'd need so many ponds/tanks ran for a couple of years with identical fish (selected siblings from a spawning maybe).

I'd be interested to see if the effects of a 10% weekly RO water change could be replicated by larger tap water changes (that would add weight to the idea that adding RO is like adding 'purer' water).

Second experiment could be 10% weekly tap water changes with acid dosed in one tank to lower the pH (this might confirm if pH alone is the key).

Third experiment would simply be comparing 10% weekly tap water changes with 10% weekly RO water changes.

Shame no-one's got 4 identical tanks to dedicate to this for a couple of years!!!!

[Gazza]

Hi Ed,

I am glad you've come back with that as you are indeed spot on and i just didn't have time to go into it the other night

OK so From Tosai or baby to Nisai the fish will grow like sting even in a bath as its what they do a bit like us a babies but once they start to get older they will tend to slow down and this is where having "good water" comes into play and starts to not only help the fish continue to grow but to also keep it in good condition and of course we have to make sure we do our bit to help so keeping filters clean and water changes,good food all has its part to play.

So how does RO do it is it all the technical stuff like low TDS and all that or is it because we are putting the fish in water as near as what it is used to which makes it thrive more

[Brek]

Well time to revisit this after a year of running, because we live close to the artic circle oop north, I had a crap summer temp wise, so cannot comment on extra growth after using RO, what I can definitively say is the skin quality has become epic, even the cheapies I bought last year as pond fillers have developed noticeable 'fukerin' on the scales, and the two kohakus have much improved 'beni', if its worth bothering with if you don't show, well that's up to you to make the decision. Me, I'm sold, running on 1 x 100 gall a day membrane at the mo, still haven't got me head round flushing the membranes mines supposed to do it automatically but there is no loop system with a valve like i see many kit sold with.

[Gazza]

Hi,

Sounds like its working well for you and thanks for the update.

What do you have on the waste at the moment and have you tried Allan as I am sure he could sort something.