Judging by the majority of threads I think most people are happy with using K1 in a varity of filters, but can anyone give me some advice on how they compare with either sand or bead filters.
I appreciate that with the later varities, you would have to make sure you have good pre cleaning of the water (static k1 or maybe a sieve), but how do they compare on the biological side ???
Are bead filters as good as sand filters for polishing the water ???
If say, you was going to buy a Nexus 200 or 300 would the same money get a better bead filter.
Apologies for all the questions, but I think personnel experience is a better indicator than the vast amount of advertising info (or did I mean crxp) than you see in the magazines.
Easy (With K1) V Sand Filter V Bead Filter
Moderators: B.Scott, vippymini, Gazza, Manky Sanke
I'm not a fan of bead filters of sand filters. To start with both types work by pushing water through the trapped crap and in my book it's like using a giant teabag full of poop and straining the pond water trough it. Now I can see where some folks might say that a static K1 system is just the same but there is a BIG difference... Static K traps the particles in the nooks and crannies but always retains a high void ratio. In other words when it is all full of crap there is still room for the water to pass through without it having to be pressed through the actual crap itself.
The second issue with bead and sand filters is that because big water is being pressed through small places it takes alot more power to get the job done. Personally I would rather spend the money on ME and not give it to the power company.
As far as biofiltration goes sand filters are not designed for it, just to clean the water, nothing more. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, it just isn't something you should figure into you equations when calculation filtration. Bead filters do give biofiltration but require a high KH of 180 or more to work well and are still prone to nitrite spikes from time to time.
What you do is up to you but it wouldn't be my choice.
B.Scott
The second issue with bead and sand filters is that because big water is being pressed through small places it takes alot more power to get the job done. Personally I would rather spend the money on ME and not give it to the power company.
As far as biofiltration goes sand filters are not designed for it, just to clean the water, nothing more. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, it just isn't something you should figure into you equations when calculation filtration. Bead filters do give biofiltration but require a high KH of 180 or more to work well and are still prone to nitrite spikes from time to time.
What you do is up to you but it wouldn't be my choice.
B.Scott
Hiya Scotty,
I'd agree in parts what you've said about bead filters, As to the crap lodging in them, not a problem if you backwash regularly(daily, on a timer, twice on a saturday), but isn't not carrying out regular maintenance a no-no on all filters, even K1?
Secondly, pumps.....Yes, I was on a swimming pool type jobby costing shedloads.Now on an Aquamax 15000...hardly owt in leccy.
Lastly, Nitrite spikes. I must be doing something right then, I haven't had a nitrite spike in ages. I'll defer as regards the KH for biofiltration, I'm in mega hard water so can't speak for anyone else.
Dave,
Prefilters are a must, I've got an estrosieve which cuts out the crap, and aerates at the same time. Water quality in 5000gals is fine, Weldec is another BB user who swears by em. Give Jules a PM, he's fitted quite a few as well, and Avenue Fisheries have all their filtration ob BB's.
Few pro's to tip the balance
1. Small footprint/remote siting option/no excavation needed.
2. Auto backflush option, handy if your on irregular shifts/long time away.
3. Dry hands backflush/cleaning.
4. Hardly ever see any on e-bay(is that cos no-ones bought one?
)
Hope this helps,
I'd agree in parts what you've said about bead filters, As to the crap lodging in them, not a problem if you backwash regularly(daily, on a timer, twice on a saturday), but isn't not carrying out regular maintenance a no-no on all filters, even K1?
Secondly, pumps.....Yes, I was on a swimming pool type jobby costing shedloads.Now on an Aquamax 15000...hardly owt in leccy.
Lastly, Nitrite spikes. I must be doing something right then, I haven't had a nitrite spike in ages. I'll defer as regards the KH for biofiltration, I'm in mega hard water so can't speak for anyone else.
Dave,
Prefilters are a must, I've got an estrosieve which cuts out the crap, and aerates at the same time. Water quality in 5000gals is fine, Weldec is another BB user who swears by em. Give Jules a PM, he's fitted quite a few as well, and Avenue Fisheries have all their filtration ob BB's.
Few pro's to tip the balance
1. Small footprint/remote siting option/no excavation needed.
2. Auto backflush option, handy if your on irregular shifts/long time away.
3. Dry hands backflush/cleaning.
4. Hardly ever see any on e-bay(is that cos no-ones bought one?
)Hope this helps,
Thanks for the replies guys, all good info.
Sand filters I think are pretty much for polishing only, so would obviuosly need excellent mechanical filtering prior to the unit.
As for bead filters or K1 type arrangements I guess there is good and bad for both. The K1 is a bit more "hand on" where you can see what's happening, well you can see the stuff mature and move around etc. Whereas bead filters are pretty much all enclosed so we cannot see what's happening.
I have seen some pretty impresive ponds with excellent and healthy Koi kept using both forms of filters.
So I think the choice is probably down to personnel choice ???
Sand filters I think are pretty much for polishing only, so would obviuosly need excellent mechanical filtering prior to the unit.
As for bead filters or K1 type arrangements I guess there is good and bad for both. The K1 is a bit more "hand on" where you can see what's happening, well you can see the stuff mature and move around etc. Whereas bead filters are pretty much all enclosed so we cannot see what's happening.
I have seen some pretty impresive ponds with excellent and healthy Koi kept using both forms of filters.
So I think the choice is probably down to personnel choice ???
-
estanque_koi
- Nurse Shark
- Posts: 75
- Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:25 am
- Location: Cordoba, Spain
quoted (B. Scott)
"Bead filters do give biofiltration but require a high KH of 180 or more to work well"
Hi Brian, do you know the reason for this? could you please explain?
On the other hand, is it true that hard water can make beads stick among them clogging the filter?
Tipically bead filters require a sieve for previous mechanical filtration. However a sieve doesn't stop as much fines as I expected. A friend of mine had an ultrasieve II for mechanical filtration, then a sequence pumping the water to a large homemade biofilter containing aerated K1. He was unhappy with his water quality, namely turbidity due to fines.
He carried out a little experiment. Water was being drawed from 2 aerated BD's to a Ultrasieve II, but then pumped by the Sequence to a static K1 homemade filter with just 20 liters of K1. The amount of dirt that the ultrasieve was letting through and the static K1 trapped in few hours was just amazing.
Diego
"Bead filters do give biofiltration but require a high KH of 180 or more to work well"
Hi Brian, do you know the reason for this? could you please explain?
On the other hand, is it true that hard water can make beads stick among them clogging the filter?
Tipically bead filters require a sieve for previous mechanical filtration. However a sieve doesn't stop as much fines as I expected. A friend of mine had an ultrasieve II for mechanical filtration, then a sequence pumping the water to a large homemade biofilter containing aerated K1. He was unhappy with his water quality, namely turbidity due to fines.
He carried out a little experiment. Water was being drawed from 2 aerated BD's to a Ultrasieve II, but then pumped by the Sequence to a static K1 homemade filter with just 20 liters of K1. The amount of dirt that the ultrasieve was letting through and the static K1 trapped in few hours was just amazing.
Diego
Hi Diego,
Bead filters tend to lose their capacity for biofiltration when the KH levels drop below 150. In order to start a new system cycling one generally needs the KH at 180 mg/l or higher. In general the lower the KH, the longer the bead filter will take to complete the nitrate cycle.
A traditional J-mat filter will function fine at KH levels of 60-90 while an established bead filter will start showing nitrite spikes. I have no idea as to why this happens but it is a well documented phenomenon.
As for clumping of bead media at high GH levels, I have no idea.
B.Scott
Bead filters tend to lose their capacity for biofiltration when the KH levels drop below 150. In order to start a new system cycling one generally needs the KH at 180 mg/l or higher. In general the lower the KH, the longer the bead filter will take to complete the nitrate cycle.
A traditional J-mat filter will function fine at KH levels of 60-90 while an established bead filter will start showing nitrite spikes. I have no idea as to why this happens but it is a well documented phenomenon.
As for clumping of bead media at high GH levels, I have no idea.
B.Scott
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Jose Antonio
- Lemon Shark
- Posts: 36
- Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:01 pm
Hi to all.
I am very interested in being able to read the documentation Brian. I am grateful if you can facilitate the place where to find.
For my experience, I have a few different results that have been witnesses several persons.
My water of the Company is very hard, high, great KH over 180 mg, approximately 45 º French. But in the koipond is treated and is with kh greatly more down.
I installed for my current pond a new descalcificator installed for a friend who is a water technician.
My kh I can control it to will, and nowadays it is below 180mg/l, enough for below.
My cycle of the nitrogen is very satisfactory, I have a bit of obsession with the parameters of the water, and I do very consecutive controls. I have any alteration of parameters forgotten with the UB 140.
Also I know some filters bead in equal conditions, even one that works from 3 years with soft water and kh very down, tampon needs to raise it a bit with some product for the effect for the ph. His colony of bacteria works perfectly.
Besides I have the experience of my former filters with matt j. and k1, and the parameters were bad. I worked and suffered very much to support them well in this reservoir.
As it I have curiosity great for achieving nicely the documentation that one speaks about these conditions.
Regards
I am very interested in being able to read the documentation Brian. I am grateful if you can facilitate the place where to find.
For my experience, I have a few different results that have been witnesses several persons.
My water of the Company is very hard, high, great KH over 180 mg, approximately 45 º French. But in the koipond is treated and is with kh greatly more down.
I installed for my current pond a new descalcificator installed for a friend who is a water technician.
My kh I can control it to will, and nowadays it is below 180mg/l, enough for below.
My cycle of the nitrogen is very satisfactory, I have a bit of obsession with the parameters of the water, and I do very consecutive controls. I have any alteration of parameters forgotten with the UB 140.
Also I know some filters bead in equal conditions, even one that works from 3 years with soft water and kh very down, tampon needs to raise it a bit with some product for the effect for the ph. His colony of bacteria works perfectly.
Besides I have the experience of my former filters with matt j. and k1, and the parameters were bad. I worked and suffered very much to support them well in this reservoir.
As it I have curiosity great for achieving nicely the documentation that one speaks about these conditions.
Regards
-
estanque_koi
- Nurse Shark
- Posts: 75
- Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:25 am
- Location: Cordoba, Spain
OK Brian, what you said about BB filters does actually agree with what I found in Duncan Griffiths's wonderful book "Step by step Advanced Koi Diagnosis & Treatments", page 21, 10th paragraph.
However, the causes are not explained in the book.
I did a quick litte search and found this
"Fish and bacteria will produce CO2 through respiration, which forms carbonic acid and tends to lower the pH. Alkalinity will buffer a drop in pH, being HCO3- a very important buffering ion. However, nitrifying bacteria will remove HCO3- from the water as their carbon source during the conversion of ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate, thus reducing the water buffering capacity. If the HCO3- is reduced too low there is a risk of pH crash, moreover the nitrifiying bacteria will not have a sufficient carbon source and will not perform nitrification properly, probably leading to an ammonia spike."
quoted from "vsound", member no. 1014 of Koishack Forum
http://koishack.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9150
¿What about BB filters and alkalinity?
The main difference in this respect between BB filters and aerated "moving bed" gravity fed filters is due to the fact that the latter can handle better the carbonic acid load via "off gassing" or "CO2 stripping" to the atmosfere. This process is promoted by strong aeration of the media, something that obviously doesn't happen inside a BB filter. Thank to this feature, less alkalinity use is required for normal operation and hence more HCO3- is available for the nitrifying bacteria.
reference: "Alkalinity and Bubble Bead Filters" by Michael Anderson
Atlanta Koi Club Koi Chronicles, April 2007
http://www.atlantakoiclub.com/Newsletters/2 ... %20WEB.pdf
Manufacturers of BB filters admit a critical lower limit of alkalinity in the range of 50 to 80 ppm, in at least one case a range of alkalinity of 100-200 ppm is recommended.
As for reference, anyone interested in the subject might have a look at
Ultrabead manual, end of page 7
http://www.ultrabead.nl/pdf/Ultrabead%20Eng ... Manual.pdf
pneumatic BB filter manual
http://www.butterflykoi.com/Drop%20Filter%20Manual.pdf
I believe that the pneumatic BB filter featured here is the poligeyser. In the "troubleshooting" section it is stated that "elevated nitrite levels may also occur if your total alkalinity (as CaCO3) drops below 80 mg/l. Recommended range of alkalinity is 100-200 mg/l as CaCO3."
However, the causes are not explained in the book.
I did a quick litte search and found this
"Fish and bacteria will produce CO2 through respiration, which forms carbonic acid and tends to lower the pH. Alkalinity will buffer a drop in pH, being HCO3- a very important buffering ion. However, nitrifying bacteria will remove HCO3- from the water as their carbon source during the conversion of ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate, thus reducing the water buffering capacity. If the HCO3- is reduced too low there is a risk of pH crash, moreover the nitrifiying bacteria will not have a sufficient carbon source and will not perform nitrification properly, probably leading to an ammonia spike."
quoted from "vsound", member no. 1014 of Koishack Forum
http://koishack.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9150
¿What about BB filters and alkalinity?
The main difference in this respect between BB filters and aerated "moving bed" gravity fed filters is due to the fact that the latter can handle better the carbonic acid load via "off gassing" or "CO2 stripping" to the atmosfere. This process is promoted by strong aeration of the media, something that obviously doesn't happen inside a BB filter. Thank to this feature, less alkalinity use is required for normal operation and hence more HCO3- is available for the nitrifying bacteria.
reference: "Alkalinity and Bubble Bead Filters" by Michael Anderson
Atlanta Koi Club Koi Chronicles, April 2007
http://www.atlantakoiclub.com/Newsletters/2 ... %20WEB.pdf
Manufacturers of BB filters admit a critical lower limit of alkalinity in the range of 50 to 80 ppm, in at least one case a range of alkalinity of 100-200 ppm is recommended.
As for reference, anyone interested in the subject might have a look at
Ultrabead manual, end of page 7
http://www.ultrabead.nl/pdf/Ultrabead%20Eng ... Manual.pdf
pneumatic BB filter manual
http://www.butterflykoi.com/Drop%20Filter%20Manual.pdf
I believe that the pneumatic BB filter featured here is the poligeyser. In the "troubleshooting" section it is stated that "elevated nitrite levels may also occur if your total alkalinity (as CaCO3) drops below 80 mg/l. Recommended range of alkalinity is 100-200 mg/l as CaCO3."
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Jose Antonio
- Lemon Shark
- Posts: 36
- Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:01 pm
I will write private message to Duncan to buy the book that is very interesting.
In Michael Anderson's text, it consults to the DR. Malone on this one doubts the alkalinity. The DR. Malone answers that in industrial farms dedicated to aquaculture, yes is necessary to raise the kh to 200, but for that special circumstances exist:
- a density of fish very high, much higher that in a pond.
- Massive nourishment to increase very much the growth.
These circumstances do that be necessary to monitor a fall of the ph and for it it to be assured with the effect by tampon of the high kh.
But also he says that in our pond, is not necessary to have a special care and that can be supported a normal level of kh 80. This opinion is the important one for us.
Manual the Ultrabead, already knew it, I have one.
In this manual of instructions, in the page 7 he says the same thing that in all the pages of instructions of all the filters of any type, which if the waters are soft you must controled the ph if you do not clean it should frequent (very importantly), I yes clean it frequents.
In any case, 80 ppm it is a normal kh, in no case 180-200. In the pag. 8 of this manual it explains that to begin the cycle of nitrificación is suitable that the level of kh places between 50-100 ppm (3-5,6 º dh). And when the pond is mature it is valid 3 º dh (50 ppm) Exactly like I support the conditions since I have explained above. I support them for the manual. And it works well.
The manual of poligeyser is not valid to buy it with presurized filters. It is not presurized, or not very presurized. My opinion is that recommending these levels of alkalinity is the effect to insure itself buffer. Surely users of poligeyser can expose his opinion. I do not know his efficiency and his needs.
In summary, in the exposed texts (Mr. Anderson, Dr. Malone, manual UB) do not assure an evil functioning of an account filter with approximately kh 3-4º dh. On the contrary, this measurement is recommended. Only in exceptional cases the kh is recommended to raise, in any class of filter, not only in the accounts filters.
These circumstances are approximately:
- I Use of aquacultura with density massive and forced nourishment.
- Scanty cleanlinesses or long billiard cues in the time. When it increases the dirt it will get down the ph, and a high place kh avoids the disaster to a great extent for his effect buffer.
I take curiosity as an opinion with experience on this one question, it will be very agreeable for me to know her.
Regards.
In Michael Anderson's text, it consults to the DR. Malone on this one doubts the alkalinity. The DR. Malone answers that in industrial farms dedicated to aquaculture, yes is necessary to raise the kh to 200, but for that special circumstances exist:
- a density of fish very high, much higher that in a pond.
- Massive nourishment to increase very much the growth.
These circumstances do that be necessary to monitor a fall of the ph and for it it to be assured with the effect by tampon of the high kh.
But also he says that in our pond, is not necessary to have a special care and that can be supported a normal level of kh 80. This opinion is the important one for us.
Manual the Ultrabead, already knew it, I have one.
In this manual of instructions, in the page 7 he says the same thing that in all the pages of instructions of all the filters of any type, which if the waters are soft you must controled the ph if you do not clean it should frequent (very importantly), I yes clean it frequents.
In any case, 80 ppm it is a normal kh, in no case 180-200. In the pag. 8 of this manual it explains that to begin the cycle of nitrificación is suitable that the level of kh places between 50-100 ppm (3-5,6 º dh). And when the pond is mature it is valid 3 º dh (50 ppm) Exactly like I support the conditions since I have explained above. I support them for the manual. And it works well.
The manual of poligeyser is not valid to buy it with presurized filters. It is not presurized, or not very presurized. My opinion is that recommending these levels of alkalinity is the effect to insure itself buffer. Surely users of poligeyser can expose his opinion. I do not know his efficiency and his needs.
In summary, in the exposed texts (Mr. Anderson, Dr. Malone, manual UB) do not assure an evil functioning of an account filter with approximately kh 3-4º dh. On the contrary, this measurement is recommended. Only in exceptional cases the kh is recommended to raise, in any class of filter, not only in the accounts filters.
These circumstances are approximately:
- I Use of aquacultura with density massive and forced nourishment.
- Scanty cleanlinesses or long billiard cues in the time. When it increases the dirt it will get down the ph, and a high place kh avoids the disaster to a great extent for his effect buffer.
I take curiosity as an opinion with experience on this one question, it will be very agreeable for me to know her.
Regards.
-
Gazza
- architeuthis moderator
- Posts: 5306
- Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:24 pm
- Location: Essex,UK
- Contact:
KH is Carbonate Hardness acts like a buffer in our systems which works to keep the acidic decline in the pond water and helps create a stable PH.KH is needed in our systems and something many people overlook as it is something that actually gets "used up" within our systems and when it does can create a PH crash which is not something you would like to happen.
Keeping a higher KH will mean you have a nice and stable PH which can be very important if you don't have much time for maintenance.
just a quick summery but hope its of some use
Keeping a higher KH will mean you have a nice and stable PH which can be very important if you don't have much time for maintenance.
just a quick summery but hope its of some use
To put it even more simply... Think of it as something in the pond water that gets eaten up when acid is present. Instead of the water becoming more acidic the KH value goes down. Thus we keep a stable pH and the KH value falls.
Acids enter the pond in a number of ways. In the dark, plants produce CO2 which is an acid. Plants include not only decorative water plants but algae as well, both free floating and on the walls of the pond. In addition rainfall can greatly affect the pH of pond water as it can often have a value of 5 pH or lower.
Last of all The filter itself uses up the KH in the process of converting the ammonia excreted by our fish into nitrate. In a static pond the KH values are in a constant state of decline. If the level drops too low then the pH in the pond can take a sudden nose dive and actually wipe out all the fish in a pond in a matter of hours. This is one good reason to regularly add fresh water to the pond. If you have tap water that is very low in KH you can supplement the KH by running the water from the pond over oyster shells, though this only works if the water is fairly close to 7 pH as the KH yield from oyster shell is quite low and even less in alkaline water. The other option to add sodium bicarbonate in small amount at regular intervals.
B.Scott
Acids enter the pond in a number of ways. In the dark, plants produce CO2 which is an acid. Plants include not only decorative water plants but algae as well, both free floating and on the walls of the pond. In addition rainfall can greatly affect the pH of pond water as it can often have a value of 5 pH or lower.
Last of all The filter itself uses up the KH in the process of converting the ammonia excreted by our fish into nitrate. In a static pond the KH values are in a constant state of decline. If the level drops too low then the pH in the pond can take a sudden nose dive and actually wipe out all the fish in a pond in a matter of hours. This is one good reason to regularly add fresh water to the pond. If you have tap water that is very low in KH you can supplement the KH by running the water from the pond over oyster shells, though this only works if the water is fairly close to 7 pH as the KH yield from oyster shell is quite low and even less in alkaline water. The other option to add sodium bicarbonate in small amount at regular intervals.
B.Scott
