Fluid bed filter to combat ammonia/nitrate and ulcers??

[Louie]

Hi All,
New at the game but learning fast!!
I have a lined pond of about 8000 litres that is over 5 feet deep. I stocked it with 25 small comets as "suicide fish" for several weeks (only one has died!) before introducing 6 koi of between 8 and 10 inches. A tetra 8000 pump into a Hozelock 9000 non pressurised system with UVC seems to be working OK and I also have a 30 litre air pump pushing through a single 9" disc.
My ammonia/nitrate levels are slightly high and I'm toying with the idea of backing up my primary filtration with a fluid bed filter. Good idea or not? And how do I introduce the flow of water from my Hozelock system to the fluid bed system anyway, since it exits the filter at a rate of approx 3600 litres an hour?
I should add that I now only have two large koi left. Two suffered badly after jumping out of the pond and laying undiscovered for what I reckon was probably a couple of hours before anyone noticed. Both recovered after a couple of hours of intense care but one went blind and the other developed ulcers where it had flapped about on the concrete. (Pond is now properly netted!)
Two others (from the same dealer) became lethargic and stopped eating after 4 weeks. One died and I put the other out of it's misery after seeing that ulcers were developing rapidly.
The remaining two are extremely vigorous and eating like there was no tomorrow (although I try not to overfeed.)
Ulcers were a HUGE problem in my previous pond and so I am constantly on the lookout for any early signs. I am sure that secondary filtration resulting in reduced ammonia and nitrate levels will help but will gladly listen to ANY advice!!

[Louie]

Reading through my post I see that I referred to high ammonia/nitrate levels. I did of course mean high Ammonia/nitrite!!
Louie

[boogatee]

Louie, can you provide more specific info?

What are your readings?
What does slightly high mean?
How long has your pond been running?
How many fish are in your pond?
Why does a tetra 8000 only deliver 3600l/hr?

A fluid bed filter may be extremely difficult to adapt to a HL9000
A Hozelock 9000 won’t handle a koi pond of 8000ltrs … you may need 2…. And at £70 each it’s probably your best option

[Louie]

The pond has been up and running now for abought 11 weeks and NOW contains about 20 or so small (2-3") comets, 2 8" comets and 2 12-13" Doitsu Koi.
I can't tell you the precise reading in relation to ammonia and nitrite because I get the water tested at my local pond centre and just rely on their advice.
The filter has now got what looks like a healthy amount of those small red wriggly things in it so I'm guessing that it's working properly?
I couldn't tell you why the pump is only moving 3600 litres an hour...... I measured the output at the same height as the inlet point on the HL filter and it was delivering exactly a litre per sec. The max figure for the HL is 4500 litres per hour so I thought it would be OK. Seems I was wrong then!
What would you suggest?

[B.Scott]

Louie,
Your turn over should be at least once every two hours i.e. 4000 gallons an hour. If you are doing double it would be good as well. The reason two of the koi have jumped is due to the water quality. Putting koi into a pond with nitrite and ammonia levels is like locking someone in a smoke filled room... they are liable to try to jump out the window, if their lungs don't get scorched first.

What you need is more filtration, it doesn't really matter what kind as long as you get more.

B.Scott

[emmaandaj]

Hi,

First of all welcome-you've come to the right place for advice! I had a similar problem- I was sold the same filter and told it would filter a koi pond-sadly they probably wont-i had problems and was sold a second one! and that didnt help. I personally would say these black box filters are massively over rated and are only suitable for gold fish ponds.

On the positive side i then used the filteras a uv and to remove solids and then directed it to some biological filtration- could you not get a barrel and fill it with 50 ltrs of k1 with a small air pump-i would think you could do this for what a fluid bed would cost??? I would advice you have a read of the diy section- theres some excellent ideas that dont cost to much!

With regards to current problem-the fish dying, no doubt down to water levels. I would stop feeding straight away, carry out a water change to dilute the amonia and nitrite and then try and get some more filtration, monitoring water parameters and carring out water changes as needed.

Best of luck-keep us posted!

Cheers Andy

[boogatee]

I agree with B Scott ...

The Hozelock 9000 is designed for goldfish ponds ... and goldfish produce much less ammonia and waste than koi. That's not to say it won’t work on a koi pond ... but expect to have to clean the filters daily as the pond matures and the fish get bigger.... and also expect the filter to struggle to maintain water quality in a 8000ltr pond stocked with koi

I'm not sure which Tetra pump you have, but tetra make a FPX, CPX or a OFX pump. The FPX largest is 3000l/h and neither the CPX nor OFX is an 8000l/h ... so it would be good to check and see exactly what's installed. .... because unless the filter is 1 meter or more above the surface of the pond the pump flow should not drop from 8000 to 3600.

One word of caution ... the pump has a stepped hose tail and the filter has a stepped hose tail - ensure you use the largest hose that will fit on both ends and be sure to cut of the smaller bits.

edit ... removed suggestion as Andy has tried it and it didn't work

Good Luck

[Capt Nemo]

Louie Hi,

as Andy has said mate, get some water changes done, this will at least for the time being (until you sort the filters) help the koi and the goldfish.

good luck


regards
Tony

[Louie]

What a great response in such a short time! Your forum is really impressive and how comforting to know that advice can be obtained so readily!
I think I've probably made a mistake thats been made by many of you when you first started off.... (Hoping hard that it's not just me....!)
I dug the pond in fairly soft ground..mostly of soft sand. I then laid some good lining material followed by a decent liner. In my haste to get the pond done though (I really couldn't wait...) I didn't give enough thought to problems that might be encountered in the future.
One of these is that if I attempt a partial water change I get a crumbling of the wall sides once there is insufficient pressure to hold them in place. This isn't something that can be easily cured...If at all. So water changes are something that can only be attempted by feeding fresh water in as existing pond water is pumped out from the bottom. Probably not the best way to achieve a good change?
I'm going to try my best to maintain this pond for a while, but having seen pics of your members ponds, I've already decided that the only way forward is to start a new build and get some proper advice from you guys to help me on my way.
And they say drug addiction is a problem.......................Where does it all end!!!
Louie
(Does anyone know a good money lender????)

[B.Scott]

Louie,
Does your pond have vertical walls?

[Gazza]

Hi Louie,

You are correct we have all been there before and made the same mistakes and how i wish i had found a place like this before i started my first pond

If your going for a new build just try to get as much info as you can before you start on all the types of construction and filtration methods.There are plenty of us around who you can visit to see our ponds or we can post pictures of construction which will help.

We are here to help so ask away its what the site is all about helping each other and having a giggle

[Louie]

I kept the walls as close to vertical as possible after reading up a bit on pond construction. I didn't use tape on the pleats which has left huge gaps for the fish to get into, but don't think this should be a problem. It doesn't look too good though to be honest.
With regard to a new build, I think I will definately get one done this summer since I'm due a pay out as the result of an industrial tribunal being held shortly. I'll put a couple of pics of my current set-up on the site and see what advice I get. I can extend from the current 3 metre length to about 4.5 metres and have about 2 metres width available. The current set up is about 5 and a half feet deep. Take off 8 inches for a base but add on 2 feet to come above ground and I think we're talking about a fairly decent sized pond.
I'm fairly confident that I can do the bricks and mortar part but it's the filtration that I'm in the dark about. I must say though that I feel a lot better about giving it a go now that I know that there is help available!!
It's all pie in the sky at the moment but I think my mind is pretty well made up!!

[Mikkoi]

Hi Louie the best thing you can do is get your own water test kit and check the water yourself that way you can act quicker on problems i.e. water changes to dilute out the ammonia etc but don't do major water changes no more than 10% at a time

as for the wriggly things in your filter they are midge larvae and not the bacteria that changes ammonia into nitrite into nitrate
The rotofiers that do that are microscopic so you won't see with the naked eye

cut back on feed and let the filter bacteria start to mature keep your UV off for the time being as well as it can slow down the colonisation of beneficial bacteria
but check your water daily if need be

Mik

[Louie]

Thanks Mik,
I've turned the UV off, but when you say cut back on the feeding, how much is good / bad? Bearing in mind of course that the comets don't eat a lot so it's mainly just a couple of very greedy koi!

[Mikkoi]

When ever I get a spike of Nitrite instead of feeding 8 times a day I sometimes cut it down to 2 or 3 feeds a day and once the nitrite drops I start gradually building the feed back up

you also have to take into account the weather at the moment temperature plays a big part of the nitrification cycle the lower the temp the slower the bacteria