Praziquantel Treatment

[DaveB]

Having had problems with gill flukes and possibly costia hiding in the gills( not confirmed with microscope) over the passed 2 years and once again returned. All previous treatments with flubenol have worked but have returned once again after a good couple of months without problems. Earlier in the season I has already treated using Flubenol and then 2 treatments of malachite and formalin.
There was some concern as I had used quite a few chemicals only a few months ago. However after discussing the issue with Duncan, I decided to try the two doses of Prazi, malachite & Formalin. The first dose went in last weekend and as expected was a fall in ORP & p.H . I assume this would be to the formalin stripping out some of the oxygen, even though extra air was added.Just for the record the p.H. was 7.3, k.H. 25ppm and the g.H. 50ppm so fairly soft water.
The koi did not react much to the addition of all 3 chemicals only the odd flash here and there on day one. By day 3 the koi were looking a bit sorry for themselves and by day 5 were swimming around looking for food. However it was noticed that a few koi had picked up a couple of knocks, which maybe due to a reaction to any chemical added to the pond?
By the time I was ready to add the second dose( which went in this morning) the koi were looking decidedly well. I am now looking to see how the koi get on with this second dose and hopefully come through ok as they did after the first dose. I will let you guys know how I get on. Best regards Dave

[ginboomerang]

Hello Dave. I used the same cocktail on a colleagues fish in July, same parasites, I did the two doses and happy to say no more issues since.

I don't know the effect on the fish during the treatments as I wasn't around and only had third hand reports.

[DaveB]

Cheers Mark thanks for your reply. If I ever have to do it again I might go away on holliday so do have to look whats going on during the treatment. Glad to hear you have had no more problems. Best regards Dave

[Duncan]

dave trust me!! I would not knowingly give you A BUM STEAR
I said they wont be thanking you but they will come through
DUNC

[DaveB]

Duncan I know that and trust you 100%. and if it weren,t for you I would have given up the hobby years ago. Please I hope you have not taken my thread the wrong way, I am only posting to let people on this site know how things are going and perhaps have the confidence to use this treatment as well. Best REgards Dave
Just as an add on koi are looking happy enough the day after second treatment. So far so good. Best REgards Dave

[Duncan]

no problem dave

they do get used to it by the second and third treatments

dunc

[DaveB]

After seven clear days post second treatment, all the koi have come through OK, however a couple of the very large koi were looking the worse for ware. Why this is so is not too clear. I also notice there was a strong smell of rotten eggs coming from the Bacci shower inside the shed. I can only assume this is due to some of the bacteria dying back inside the bacci house media. Anyway I commenced changing water over the past 5 days and have also added some hydrogen peroxide which has reoxygenated the water and has removed the smell of hydrogen sulphide. All the koi are now looking much better and are all feeding bar one which is a very large chagoi. No doubt he will eventually come around and start feeding soon. One or two koi have taken a couple of knocks so will give them a few days longer before I start any treatment.
One question: as I know adding Hydrogen Peroxide can be used to reverse a PP ( although not the preffered metthod) as expected there was a fall in ORP reading to 150mv . What I can,t understand is why it is taking so long to rise again. At a current p.H of 7.2 ORP would normally be in the region of 300 to 350mv.
Not sure if I am totally out of the woods yet, but the koi are looking much better but wonder now whether my water is a bit under par. Best Regards Dave

[ginboomerang]

Hello Dave, that's good news. Regarding the Chagoi, could it be water temperature related ? My mutts slowed down quite noticeably over the last couple of weeks with the cooler weather but with the recent rise in temps they have perked back up again, some more than others.

Mark.

[DaveB]

Hello Dave, that's good news. Regarding the Chagoi, could it be water temperature related ? My mutts slowed down quite noticeably over the last couple of weeks with the cooler weather but with the recent rise in temps they have perked back up again, some more than others.

Mark.

Mark thanks for the input . The Pond is heated, same temp as before treatment 19 degs C. Best regards Dave

[Manky Sanke]

Dave,

The smell of rotten eggs is a bad sign and, if it got back to the pond, it's the most likely cause of the koi looking unwell before you did some water changes and added hydrogen peroxide. It's the result of anaerobic respiration by bacteria in oxygen deprived areas producing hydrogen sulphide (H2S). Hydrogen sulphide is very toxic and the American EPA recommends a maximum acceptable level of 0.002 mg/L, which is one tenth the maximum acceptable level of chlorine in a koi pond. The oxygen carrying capacity of haemoglobin is affected so death by respiratory failure can occur very quickly preceded by erratic behaviour. Lesser, though still serious, health concerns are gill damage and stress causing suppression of the immune system leading to the susceptibility to attack by disease and ulcer causing bacteria or by parasites.

Hydrogen peroxide neutralises it very effectively but, if you don't solve the cause of the problem, it will return. Assuming the rest of your pond is clean and free of silt then the Bakki Shower is the probable cause so keep a close eye on the Bakki just to make sure.

[DaveB]

Dave,

The smell of rotten eggs is a bad sign and, if it got back to the pond, it's the most likely cause of the koi looking unwell before you did some water changes and added hydrogen peroxide. It's the result of anaerobic respiration by bacteria in oxygen deprived areas producing hydrogen sulphide (H2S). Hydrogen sulphide is very toxic and the American EPA recommends a maximum acceptable level of 0.002 mg/L, which is one tenth the maximum acceptable level of chlorine in a koi pond. The oxygen carrying capacity of haemoglobin is affected so death by respiratory failure can occur very quickly preceded by erratic behaviour. Lesser, though still serious, health concerns are gill damage and stress causing suppression of the immune system leading to the susceptibility to attack by disease and ulcer causing bacteria or by parasites.

Hydrogen peroxide neutralises it very effectively but, if you don't solve the cause of the problem, it will return. Assuming the rest of your pond is clean and free of silt then the Bakki Shower is the probable cause so keep a close eye on the Bakki just to make sure.

Syd That is my initial thoughts. I suspect the bacteria in the bakki house media to be killed off and the fact that it has changed colour from a light brown to black is probably another indication. As the bakki house media is only a couple of years old I am hoping that it is not totally ruined. After adding the hydrogen peroxide the koi have improved and there is no longer the smell of hydrogen sulphide so fingers crossed. There has also been fall in p.H. and more bicarb is suddenly required to maintain a p.H. above 7. This together with the fall in ORP are all worrying signs.
Best REgards Dave

[Duncan]

Dave

syd has covered the H2S adequately what I would say is flush the bakki media through to clear any anaerobic area's thus eliminating the anaerobic action

the treatments would not of caused this, while they could wipe out some bacteria only a build up of crud can create anaerobic conditions this was probably building for some time

once clean the media should bounce back

dunc

[DaveB]

Duncan
All the koi have come through OK and are all up eating so good news there. Regarding the BHM .The smell of Hydrogen peroxide Has not returned and I wonder why I should get a build up of crud in the BHM as I have a very good flow rate going over it.( 2x 20000 ltr pumps) Is it possible that the Crud may have been building up elsewhere only to gas off in this area due to a lot of splashing going on. I am only asking this as due to preservng water changes during treatment I only cleaned my Vortex and easy screen once in two weeks. I am really hoping this is the case . The BHM although still looks clean has turned from a light brown to black. Easy enough to clean the outside but difficult if not impossible to clean the inside.Best Regards Dave

[Duncan]

Dave you have a build up of something anaerobic somewhere and as the smell emanated from the bacteria house media my guess would be there

but if it there or not its somewhere unfortunately only you can find it

dunc

[DaveB]

Cheers Duncan, Looks like I will have to get my thinking cap on.