Hi folks, could do with a bit of help.
For the last 4 years i have had crystal clear water and very few problems.
Pretty much since the covers came off this year the water has been getting greener and greener, i replaced the UV as it was close to 12 months old and thought it was maybe that but its not made a difference. I added a product that was supposed to clear the water, which cleared it a tiny bit but only a few inches worth on the top and didnt make a big difference. I usually get a bit of blanket weed this time of year but had no sign of it....
Last week one of my bigger older Koi died and my wife has just pulled another big one out dead today....
I took a sulking one for a scrape the other day and a bit of Costia was found which i have treated with Medizin P, (not scraped them since to clarify if it has gone in all honesty) and the fish that have died looked in good condition, no obvious marks/cuts/abrasions.
At a bit of a loss as to what to do to be honest, has anyone got any suggestions please?
Pond is 3000 gallon, bottom drain to a sieve then through a bead filter and a UV before returning to the pond and a surface skimmer feeds a waterfall.
Thanks
James
Bad water, fish dying.
Moderators: B.Scott, vippymini, Gazza, Manky Sanke
-
Manky Sanke
- Site Admin
- Posts: 554
- Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 10:24 am
Re: Bad water, fish dying.
James,
Duncan is the expert on health problems but my home territory, water parameters, are the first thing to check when there is a problem. Bad parameters can cause health problems directly or weaken the immune system so that a fish succumbs to a pathogen it could otherwise have resisted. Even if poor water quality doesn't play a part in initiating the problem, koi have a much better chance of recovering in good water than in bad.
The minimum parameters you should check are pH, ammonia and nitrite. Oxygen is an important parameter that should be measured unless you are certain that you have very, very good aeration not just one or two air stones. Algae, and blanket weed oxygenate a pond during the day but can remove a lot of oxygen during the night. Pond treatments are often the cause of oxygen depletion especially if coupled with dying algae. Oxygen values may not drop sufficiently to cause suffocation but can be low enough to cause stress which will weaken the immune system.
Nitrate and KH can also give valuable information to help interpreting other parameters. If any water parameter is incorrect then it should be brought to an acceptable value as quickly as possible so as not to unnecessarily delay any medical treatment.
I wouldn't argue with Duncan if he said otherwise but I believe that, during a parasite problem, it will be the smallest fish that are likely to succumb first. What is certain is that bigger fish use considerably more oxygen than smaller ones. So you've used a pond treatment because of an algae problem, a second one to treat parasites and now two big koi have died. That isn't proof but it's a good reason to check the oxygen level in addition to pH, ammonia and nitrite in order to make sure these parameters are all acceptable, or quickly corrected, before any medical diagnosis.
Duncan is the expert on health problems but my home territory, water parameters, are the first thing to check when there is a problem. Bad parameters can cause health problems directly or weaken the immune system so that a fish succumbs to a pathogen it could otherwise have resisted. Even if poor water quality doesn't play a part in initiating the problem, koi have a much better chance of recovering in good water than in bad.
The minimum parameters you should check are pH, ammonia and nitrite. Oxygen is an important parameter that should be measured unless you are certain that you have very, very good aeration not just one or two air stones. Algae, and blanket weed oxygenate a pond during the day but can remove a lot of oxygen during the night. Pond treatments are often the cause of oxygen depletion especially if coupled with dying algae. Oxygen values may not drop sufficiently to cause suffocation but can be low enough to cause stress which will weaken the immune system.
Nitrate and KH can also give valuable information to help interpreting other parameters. If any water parameter is incorrect then it should be brought to an acceptable value as quickly as possible so as not to unnecessarily delay any medical treatment.
I wouldn't argue with Duncan if he said otherwise but I believe that, during a parasite problem, it will be the smallest fish that are likely to succumb first. What is certain is that bigger fish use considerably more oxygen than smaller ones. So you've used a pond treatment because of an algae problem, a second one to treat parasites and now two big koi have died. That isn't proof but it's a good reason to check the oxygen level in addition to pH, ammonia and nitrite in order to make sure these parameters are all acceptable, or quickly corrected, before any medical diagnosis.
-
James WF10
- Lemon Shark
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:46 pm
Re: Bad water, fish dying.
Thanks for the quick reply. Will check and report back.Still not sure why the water would be so green though, should my UV not be keeping it clear like in the past?
Re: Bad water, fish dying.
syd you took the woods right out of my mouth
regards water the to big hitters that stand out are pH and O2 with green water ok ill throw a third in KH that will tell you how much buffer you have and if your liable to big pH swings
Next parasites with all due respect there is no such thing as a few costia if they are there they are there in numbers and usually their best pal chilodonella is not far away so this needs dealing with next you need malachite green and formaldehyde not that Medizin P
costia and chillo are silent killers they usually don't leave a mark I bet if you did a gill biopsy the gills are rife with them
take a tip get some 2% malachite and some hefty 36% formaldehyde and get to grips but check your KH and pH and O2 first green water is a bugger for driving pH down and lowering O2
dunc
regards water the to big hitters that stand out are pH and O2 with green water ok ill throw a third in KH that will tell you how much buffer you have and if your liable to big pH swings
Next parasites with all due respect there is no such thing as a few costia if they are there they are there in numbers and usually their best pal chilodonella is not far away so this needs dealing with next you need malachite green and formaldehyde not that Medizin P
costia and chillo are silent killers they usually don't leave a mark I bet if you did a gill biopsy the gills are rife with them
take a tip get some 2% malachite and some hefty 36% formaldehyde and get to grips but check your KH and pH and O2 first green water is a bugger for driving pH down and lowering O2
dunc
-
James WF10
- Lemon Shark
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:46 pm
Re: Bad water, fish dying.
Correction. It was Trichodina that was found (looks like a donut under the scope) which is why i was treating with Medizin P.
Thanks very much for the advice though. Will check all paramaters as well and update as soon as possible.
Thanks very much for the advice though. Will check all paramaters as well and update as soon as possible.
Re: Bad water, fish dying.
James in that case trich are Nothing and are especially nothing to big fish, if that's all I had to worry about with a pond I would be a happy man
look to your water parameters and also look at the crystal sleeve of your UV if that's fouled up no matter how new your lamp the rays wont get through
long shot but check PO4 as well if these are high your algae problem will grow
dunc
look to your water parameters and also look at the crystal sleeve of your UV if that's fouled up no matter how new your lamp the rays wont get through
long shot but check PO4 as well if these are high your algae problem will grow
dunc
-
James WF10
- Lemon Shark
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:46 pm
Re: Bad water, fish dying.
Thanks. Good call on the UV, ive never cleaned the crystal sleeve, to be honest i wouldnt know how so will have a look into it and see if it needs a clean. Ive never cleaned it in about 5 years of it running so i suppose there is every chance it could be dirty by now.
When i got home last night i went to see the fish that was dead, from what my wife said it was my big white one, on closer looking it had been dead a few days so the orange on its back had all faded to a white appearance and it was a different fish to the one i thought. This fish has actually had other problems recently, i took it to my local fish place to have him examined and scraped, as i thought he must have had a swimmer bladder problem as it wasnt swimming correctly (thrashing its head when trying to swim and doing 360 degree spins in the water, floating belly up and sinking), Paul who examined it said that the fish was really solid in its body suggesting it may be something worse internally, but didnt know what. Turns out, it was this one that died not my big white one (which is why i didnt mention about its problems in the OP) All other fish appeared ok last night and were eating well.
I'm going to try and attach a pic of the first one that died to see if there is anything that jumps out at you if thats ok, its underbelly looks quite big now i look at it, wondered if that could be a sign of anything.......
Ultimately i know the answers will be in the water tests and more scrapes, but wont be able to get them for a day or two.
Thanks
James
When i got home last night i went to see the fish that was dead, from what my wife said it was my big white one, on closer looking it had been dead a few days so the orange on its back had all faded to a white appearance and it was a different fish to the one i thought. This fish has actually had other problems recently, i took it to my local fish place to have him examined and scraped, as i thought he must have had a swimmer bladder problem as it wasnt swimming correctly (thrashing its head when trying to swim and doing 360 degree spins in the water, floating belly up and sinking), Paul who examined it said that the fish was really solid in its body suggesting it may be something worse internally, but didnt know what. Turns out, it was this one that died not my big white one (which is why i didnt mention about its problems in the OP) All other fish appeared ok last night and were eating well.
I'm going to try and attach a pic of the first one that died to see if there is anything that jumps out at you if thats ok, its underbelly looks quite big now i look at it, wondered if that could be a sign of anything.......
Ultimately i know the answers will be in the water tests and more scrapes, but wont be able to get them for a day or two.
Thanks
James
-
James WF10
- Lemon Shark
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:46 pm
Re: Bad water, fish dying.
Cant add the photo for some reason. Will try at home later.
Re: Bad water, fish dying.
It is worth checking the new UV bulb too- we had a couple last year that glowed at the ends so thought they were working , water was getting greener and greener so got hubby to have another look and the bulb was basically burnt out -just the ends glowing so was doing nothing. Changed it and still no improvement, that bulb was also glowing at the ends and shot through out.... so got a different make and water started to clear within a day or so.
Hope you get to the bottom of the koi problems.
Hope you get to the bottom of the koi problems.
Re: Bad water, fish dying.
good call Jane we all assume because its new its good!! alas working in the car industry I wish!! 
-
James WF10
- Lemon Shark
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:46 pm
Re: Bad water, fish dying.
Just to close this one out..... had a few fish checked out and nothing was found, had the water checked and all levels were fine.......
I have a bottom drain feeding to a sieve which then goes on to a bead filter, through a UV and return, i pushed the sieve overflow down to increase the water flow over it as it seemed to have slowed down a bit, after about 15 seconds seconds of increased overflow, a MASSIVE clump of compressed muck came up and over, the flow increased and after cleaning the bead filter every day (sometimes twice a day) after a week the water was back to crystal clear. I usually clean the bead filter every 5-7 days so now i make the stirring up of the bottom drain part of my routine, even after just a few days its surprising how much of the heavier stuff seems to gather. May need to look at a stronger pump possibly??
Either way, all back to normal and crystal clear water...... i know it doesnt answer the question of the first fish dying but with no other losses and no other problems, i'll have to chalk it up as one of those things and keep on top of my basic maintenance.
Thanks for all the help and advice people offered.
Cheers
James
I have a bottom drain feeding to a sieve which then goes on to a bead filter, through a UV and return, i pushed the sieve overflow down to increase the water flow over it as it seemed to have slowed down a bit, after about 15 seconds seconds of increased overflow, a MASSIVE clump of compressed muck came up and over, the flow increased and after cleaning the bead filter every day (sometimes twice a day) after a week the water was back to crystal clear. I usually clean the bead filter every 5-7 days so now i make the stirring up of the bottom drain part of my routine, even after just a few days its surprising how much of the heavier stuff seems to gather. May need to look at a stronger pump possibly??
Either way, all back to normal and crystal clear water...... i know it doesnt answer the question of the first fish dying but with no other losses and no other problems, i'll have to chalk it up as one of those things and keep on top of my basic maintenance.
Thanks for all the help and advice people offered.
Cheers
James
Re: Bad water, fish dying.
hi James
glad things have cleared up just shows what a partial blockage can do decrease flow increase in poor water quality
go job that's why I love the simple approach
dunc
glad things have cleared up just shows what a partial blockage can do decrease flow increase in poor water quality
go job that's why I love the simple approach
dunc