Internet trading

[Manky Sanke]

I've been invited to attend an animal welfare conference next week and Internet trading is likely to be on the agenda. There are moves afoot to ban the selling of any animal over the Internet to unknown buyers. The area I am particularly interested in is koi being sold and delivered by carrier. Anyone who has ever seen how carriers treat packages during loading or unloading will understand that part of my concern. I've often had packages, clearly marked fragile that arrive with footprints all over them.

There is nothing wrong with a dealer putting pictures of koi along with prices on their website so that anyone interested can visit their premises and make a purchase - that's just advertising. The concern is about dubious sellers selling to unknown buyers and then sending the koi.

There was a spate on ebay, a while ago, with pictures of koi for sale where they were being held by hand out of water or just laid on the floor to pose them for the camera. A few of us made complaints to ebay about animal welfare and most of that seems to have stopped.

Does anyone on here have any current examples of koi being badly treated in order to sell them? Links to pictures would be ideal.

[kayoss]

There are moves afoot to ban the selling of any animal over the Internet to unknown buyers.

Hi Syd

How is it likely to affect the private hobbyist who just wants to move on a couple of koi? Most of us use the internet and don't know potential buyers.

Cheers

Bob

[ageinghippy]

Hi Mr Manky,

I am with you on the worry about `carriers`, but I think you`ll find that the reputable dealers use their own, known, couriers. Similar words, carriers and couriers, but miles apart in the way they operate.

It would be a shame to potentially threaten to drive reputable dealers out of business, because they were no longer able to offer a delivery service for distance customers.


Chris (another one)

[Pond Life]

Not the worst examples I've seen on fleabay but not the way to photograph fish for sale:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-x-5-cm-Mir ... 43a5ec2a4a

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-x-5-cm-Gold ... 564324d62a

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/koi-pond-fish ... 4aaf89985b

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STUNNING-JAPA ... 3f0ede8e1a

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-X-8-9-GREEN ... 1c1faba537

I will never understand how fleabay bans the sale of animals but allows fish to be listed, fish are animals aren't they? or is my basic science knowledge seriously flawed?

I think there is a big difference between reputable dealers who send their fish with good carriers and pay extra for early next day delivery and those who just use standard cheap couriers. That said, even with the best carriers things can go wrong, bags split, boxes (and fish) crushed, parcels get lost leaving the fish to slowly suffocate to death etc. I would never buy fish by mail order, if I can't collect it myself I won't have the fish.

[Manky Sanke]

Sorry I couldn't reply earlier, my broadband had a mind of its own.

How is it likely to affect the private hobbyist who just wants to move on a couple of koi? Most of us use the internet and don't know potential buyers

Bob, animal welfare legislation is designed to protect animals, not to find ways to prosecute responsible pet owners or reputable dealers. I will be arguing very strongly that dealers who advertise their "product" (koi) over the Internet and make clear that the koi can be viewed and purchased at their premisis are just advertising like any other business. A koi keeper who moves on a fish in a similar way, ie "this is a picture of my fish, come and buy it or I will deliver it", will also not be affected.

Mail order koi is more tricky. Koi are regularly transported safely over long distances in bags inside boxes. So if koi are properly packed and the boxes are transported overnight by reputable carriers who will take appropriate care and if the buyer will be available to receive it, and knows how to look after it, I don't see a problem.

That's a bit of a mouthful but we all instinctively know when abuse is taking place, what is difficult is making a watertight definition so that good people aren't penalised but the bad ones are driven out of business. This is why I want as much information as possible so that I can clarify what is acceptable and what isn't.

PKDA dealers are required to ensure that the koi they sell are going to a good home so they should ask the buyer questions designed to ensure the environment will be suitable and that the buyer knows how to look after koi. There is nothing to stop the buyer lying but the dealer will have done all that is reasonable to ensure that the koi's welfare is safeguarded and can't be implicated if subsequent abuse takes place. Whether PKDA registered or not, this is a good strategy for all koi dealers or private sellers. If anyone who sells or moves on a fish takes the trouble to ask a few basic questions, they too will have shown that they aren't one of the bad lot who are just in it for the money and don't care if the koi are subsequently badly treated.

There are those who have looked at pictures on ebay and just want to see an end to any form of Internet trading because, as they see it, that would solve the problem at a stroke. My input to the debate will be that simply advertising what you have for sale isn't a breach of animal wefare and even mail order koi, if done to a properly drawn up code, is acceptable.

The only problem I can see is defining the code. I'll be doing the best that I can for proper koi keepers and dealers, but there is likely to be some stiff opposition. In the meantime if anyone selling, or even giving away, a fish takes the trouble to ask ask a few questions, they will have done all that can be expected.

I am with you on the worry about `carriers`, but I think you`ll find that the reputable dealers use their own, known, couriers. Similar words, carriers and couriers, but miles apart in the way they operate.

It would be a shame to potentially threaten to drive reputable dealers out of business, because they were no longer able to offer a delivery service for distance customers.

Chris, everyone knows when a koi in a box has been safely carried and delived. The problem is in defining what procedure or code is acceptable. If a box goes onto the seller's or dealer's own vehicle and is delivered directly to a customer, that would be ideal. If a box is collected by a courier, just like any other Christmas parcel, taken to a nearby depot, unloaded, transferred to a lorry to be taken to a second or even third depot before being thrown into a van and taken to a customer who may or may not be at home, that clearly isn't.

But what about a dealer who, as you say, uses a known and trusted courier, is that ok? I'd say yes but that's where the difficulty lies and I will be up against those who will say "ban sending koi by carrier, problem solved".

I will never understand how fleabay bans the sale of animals but allows fish to be listed, fish are animals aren't they? or is my basic science knowledge seriously flawed?

Thanks for the pictures, they aren't the correct way to treat fish but they are a lot less extreme than they used to be. On another forum, there was quite a hue and cry about pictures of koi being held or laid on decking. Several of us started complain to everyone we could think of that might help. Whether we were successful or not is open to debate but the more blatantly cruel examples selling by mail order now seem to have gone.