Think it's finally over

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Graham.
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Think it's finally over

Post by Graham. »

Just over three weeks ago a good friend who is currently looking after my main stock of koi while my pond is being built gave me the heads up that our grow on experiement of a batch of koi had issues.

This was a QT of just over 350 gallons, it had a number of mixed koi in it ranging from 10cm - 15cm Omosako Shiro, Matsue Sanke, Omosako Kujaku and some Goshiki.

The QT was well established and had been running for a long period, water was fine as we had finished the Koi Keepers grow and show which was 33 Omosako Shiro provided to us by Mike at Yumekoi and things was ticking along nicely, 50kg BHM running in a shower with and Aquamax 16,000 over the top, also a 8,000 aquamax running on a compact sieve, also with trickle in-out system of fresh water via purifier.

Water was around the 22 deg mark and water perameters was fine, water checks taken regimently, plus ths tank had a vaiety of probes in checking tds, ph, temp.

Anyway, we noticed a couple of the Kujaku had what appeared to be the first signs of ulcers, a number of scales raised and one actually had a broken area which looked very aggressive.

First thing was to get out a couple and check for scrapes (no nasties spotted) and treat the koi accordingly this was done by the 2-phenoxyethanol, the koi was then cleaned up with a cotton bud making sure no puss or anything left in the Koi, any dead or troublesome scales where removed, this was then 2% Mercurochrome over and then finally sealed with Lock "n" Seal Plus with propolis.

The Koi was then put back, we then reverted to what we knew best (or thought was the right thing) we added CT 1 gm per 100 gallons and put in 0.5oz per gallon of salt, Qt temp was still at 22 so this was notched up to 24.

2nd day we was still uneasy with what was going on so we increased the CT to 2gm per 100 gallon, and once again on day 3 we decided that as things where still looking bad and the fact that two of the Koi had passed away we bit the bullet and went for 4gm CT per 100 gallon.

We then let the koi relax and reviewed what we was doing, I hit the web (best place to start Koi Quest) and looked back at what had been done beofre from members here, noticed that the heat was paramount and that the mix of CT and salt was way to go.

However over the next days we could see the bacterial infection was not going to go away without a fight, in fact we felt that the dosage we had done seemed to do no more than piss the bacteria off and now it really looked to be taking no prisoners.

We had lost 2 koi and we could see that a further 5 had issues, again we had the troubled koi out and tried to administer topical treaments to assist in the healing process but knowing the water was riddled with bacteria we didnt hold much hope.

We decided to up the anty, we increased the salt to a 0.6% salinity level and hit a three day treatment of CT at 6gm per 100 gallon tems where now at the 26.5 mark, to say the next three days was nail biting was an understatement, during this period infections seem to spread on the Koi that had been hit, for example this Kujaku was a victim and passed away the next day.

Image

We also lost a Matsue Sanke and one of my Omosako Shiro from Yumekoi.

After the 3 day dose we again sat back and looked at what was going on, we felt that there was still a trace of bacteria as a couple of the Koi had new marks, we noticed this in how open and red and aggressive the wounds were appearing.

Time to hit lastminute.com and go at this with some fight.

4 days after the last treatment we checked the water once again and maintained the 0.6% salinity, we then added 10g per 100 gallon of CT added a further air pump to the water and prayed to the Nishikigoi gods to have mercy !!

First night was over and the koi was through, no further casualties and no concerns, during this period no food had been added but after a call to a great friend of all of us here, we was advised to add a small amount of food as know one likes to be in hospital and starved to death !

On the previous nights actions we continued with the 10g dose rate for another 2 days, maintaining a heat of 26.5 still with the system running as normal, trickle in trickle out of fresh water which was always the case.

That was 4 days ago !!!

Last night we bowled up a few and wow without jinxing this and getting bit on the arse Koi are healing up and no more added victims to the list, are we over it I have no idea but what a learning curve.

Love to hear peoples thoughts and opinions, where did we go wrong, where could we have turned a different corner for better results at an earlier time or did we do enough?

Just wanted to share my experience with you all.

Graham
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Re: Think it's finally over

Post by Geoff9 »

Hi Grayham
An interesting post,sorry for the loss but pleased you seem to have got on top of the problem,CT is still a very good treatment for a high bacteria count,10gr per 100gallon is a very high dose as you say,not too sure I would have had the nerve to go so high,do you think feeding will cause other problems like Ammonia and Nitrite now your filters are knocked back?

Regards Geoff
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Re: Think it's finally over

Post by Graham. »

Afternoon Geoff,

On checking the water last night we had the following.

Ammonia 0.2
Ph 8.0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 10

As you say the filters are going to be knocked back so a watchful eye is going to be applied until we are 100% satisfied, still not sure what created such a stuborn bacterial infestation and one I would not relish at seeing again.

I dont think nerve came into it Geoff, we felt it was more of a case to go for it and be prepared for a large water change or sit back and stress out watching koi after koi pass away, I think the term shit or bust was applied and fingers crossed.

i'll update along the way on this, would be interested if anyone would be adding anything to assist the recovery.

Graham
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Re: Think it's finally over

Post by Gazza »

Hi Graham,

Sounds like you've been having some fun :shock: (not) but at least you hung in there and by the sounds of it you can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Well done it can be tough and sometimes we need to go for it to pull it out the bag and fingers crossed you guys have it sorted :D
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Re: Think it's finally over

Post by kimr »

Hi Gazza

This post reminds me of a post of yours a few years back where you had a bacterial problem and you had to hit it hard with CT, so you know what it is like. I always wonder when you have a closed pond where the heck do these things come from.

If I was to add anything to the pond to help recovery I would of used sabbactisun, but I havn't used the Kusuri substitute but as it is natural and can be used with salt it might be worth thinking about. I hope the Koi continue to recover
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Re: Think it's finally over

Post by Graham. »

Morning Kim,

Well the Koi are recovering now, a couple days after that last post we had one Koi take a sharp downturn and it really did leave us scratching our heads, I contacted Paula Reynolds as it got so close to calling in the Experts, but we stayed with it and introduced another 3 day course of CT at a 10g per 100 gallon dose and again temps were up to the 27 area.

Im not saying anything else as I dont want to jinx it if you know what I meen :wink:

I have had a sharp learning curve on this, and whilst we lost a batch of Koi in this I have learnt alot, and understand a few more things.

Regards
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Re: Think it's finally over

Post by Gazza »

Hi Graham,

Fingers crossed mate you've seen the back of this one.
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Re: Think it's finally over

Post by kimr »

Hi Graham

Any updates as to how things are going, I hope things are going well
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Re: Think it's finally over

Post by Graham. »

All sorted Kim, really was a head banger getting this resolved. Lost 8 in total but at least the rest are now looking good and growing.

We took the showers down last week and there was no muck laying inside showers, bhm was DAZ white, so obviously the CT had given it a blitz.

Graham
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Re: Think it's finally over

Post by kimr »

Hi Graham

Sorry you ended up losing 8 Koi, but thank goodness you got on top of when you did.

Something that is niggling in the back of my head as to where this could of come from, has made me wonder on the equiptment we use and how often we clean it. Would it be possible for bacteria of this nature to get on a net and on netting a koi passing it over, or any piece of equiptment we use, or even be transfered by our hands when feeding. It has to of got in there somehow, by some means, and we all know about and practice "healthy hands" especailly when handling and treating our koi. It's a bit like a child picking up inbatigo from supermarket trolley. We all do our very best in caring for our Koi, and protecting them as much as we can, but being a closed system with the benefit of heat, which will increase the risk of bacteria, knowing how these things can be caught we can help us in preventing it (if that makes sense)

Well done Graham on a great post and something I have learnt from
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Re: Think it's finally over

Post by Graham. »

Kim we to was amazed how this went from a happy grow on setup to a witches cauldron, I think as Koi keepers we do our utmost to keep things Bio secure, lessons I have learnt along the way through reading places like KQ and from my experience with a number of people when being involved at koi shows and helping on water teams, also having some experience in being around dealers when shipments come in from Japan.

But it does worry me that sometime we keep things so clean and dirt free that we do more harm than good, I as I type I keep thinking back to the film with Tom Cruise War of the Worlds with that attach of the Martians :lol: It seems us humans have been brought up to survive and deal with the bugs and nastys in everyday life.

Do we reduce the immune systems of Koi by keeping everything so fresh and tidy and then at the first outbreak of a little critter all hell breaks lose?

Graham
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Re: Think it's finally over

Post by kimr »

Hi Graham

Thats an interesting point, it is alos the case of too much oxygen, that they become so dependant on it we have to keep the air going in no matter what. It is finding a fine balance between and ok and way over the top, I were gloves all the time except for when I am feeding the Koi and that is not for fear of me catching something but for fear of me passing something to them, I regularly PP my equiptment just to make sure it is clean. But when something like this hits the question is "how on earth" the answer we will never know for sure but another learning curve, and it is through people like yourself who shares it with us we to can learn :D :D
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Re: Think it's finally over

Post by Gazza »

Hi Graham,

I think one of the most important things is to keep a clean system and have found that for me this is one of the most important things and that the systems work much better with less problems this way.
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Re: Think it's finally over

Post by kimr »

Hi Gazza

A clean system as in filter set up (that is what you meant) is a must, and having filters that are as easy to keep clean as possible is the way to go, but then you see MATURE Bakki Showers and it blows the mind. Also there are filters on the market that are meant to be the dogs wot nots but they could harbour all kind of things without us ever knowing until it is to late.

I think what a post like this highlights is, no matter how careful we are things can and do go wrong, but trying to find where they come from would be even more helpful. Also knowing if a bacteria can lie dormant for any amount of time, as with a virus like KHV, a Koi can have the virus but show no symptoms for years until one day ban. The conditions in this pond had been the same for some time so it wasn't as if it was that.
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