Mouth damage - treatment

[benyiii]

Noticed a small slice on the centre of the lower lip on the inside one of my koi about a month ago. I carried out three injections of fortum and the koi began eating again and the wound started to heal so thought all ok.

Unfotunately a couple of weeks ago I noticed a slight swelling in the cheak and upon inspection whilst the damage inside the mouth is healing nicely it now runs round to the outside of left hand side of the lips which then indents slightly into the small swelling in the cheek. I carried out two injections of fortum again but doesnt seem to be any change. So i was slightly concerned about the pocket so I cleaned out the area topically with salt then pp and then finally some propolis to seal. My plan of action now the wound is clean is to carry out four injections of amicicin and use koi clear which ive head v good experience with in the past at helping things to heal quickly which is obviously an issue for mouth damage. I have done this once so far on sat.

Has anyone any thoughts of treatment above, im guessing the issue was i should have carried on with AB's a little longer first time round...just im concscious of the need to act quickly with mouth problems. At the moment there is no real damage as such just the lips are open...the koi is eating well and behaves otherwises as normal but i dont feel im winning atm and dont want to let it do any real damage to the mouth

Advice appreciated

[benyiii]

Anyone any experience and their choice of treatment procedure?

[Kevin Ellis]

Ben

Guess photos would help?

Regards

Kev

[Gazza]

Hi Ben,

As Kevin has said do you have any pictures so we can see how good/bad the wound is and any idea how this happened

Is it a normally cause for you to inject a fish with problems and has this fish had antibiotics before

Where was it the fish was injected and at was dose rate and how far apart

When injecting the fish did you clean out and topically treat the wound

I am not sure on you method of cleaning with the salt and PP are they mixed up or crystals (sorry if that sounds a silly question but have to ask) but i think you would be much better off using some HP in the mouth area just as usually you have to be very careful with it.One thing for sure that dealing with wounds round the mouth area can be very difficult due to some of the small area os skin to deal with and also the use of the mouth in eating and breathing so its moving all the time.

Without seeing the fish and size of the damage is a bit hard but i am not one to use antibiotics that fats and like to see if it can be sorted without firstly as sometimes they can do more harm than good. I would of cleaned the wound out with HP and cotton buds making sure i got right into the wound going it a few goes and making sure the HP got a good old fizz. This would then be cleaned and dried off and then some Mercurochrome or i also like to use some MRF 1 which is great for mouth and fin rot. I would make sure i get a very good topical treatment in there and dry it off well and then i would add a good seal (lock & seal + i use) and then whilst that is drying i would add oraheasive powder and hopefully seal it all in to give the wound a good chance of healing.

You could also do a pond treatment of PP or CT to reduce the bacterial count and this will also help the wound. One thing for sure you will need the water to be spot on for this to heal well and if you can at a good temperature.

Hope you can get on top of this one mate as i know it can be a bugger with these things sometimes.

[tomc]

Ben

Seems a bit odd for this to go on for so long. Seems a lot of jabs too for what should be on of the simpler repair jobs (with regards to area of damage).

Are you sure there's not some foreign object buried in there somewhere?

Tom

[Duncan]

hi we need a decent picture to make any reasonable recomendation

may i also recommend my MFR-1 for this mouth condition? thats what it was developed for

dunc

[benyiii]

Thanks for the advice guys - i will get her out this evening and take a pic.

- Gaz the mouth was not infected but rather a wound so the AB's were for safe measure, perhaps uneccessary im just terrified of mouth problems getting out of control from previous experience.
- The PP was crystals just on a cotton bud with a bit of water as all i had at the time. It didnt appear infected but rather a clean wound but i just wanted to make sure it was clean as there is a little pocket under the swelling - pics will help
- Tom i dont think there is any foreign objects in the pond. There was a probe which i removed after the first intstance, i dont understand why its spread to the outside of the lip which makes me think its infected but its doesnt appear to be looking at it, a pic will help so you can all have a look.
- I did do a a few doses of CT first time round so perhaps worth doing again?
- Dunc thanks for the reply, is this a topical treatment? If you think more suitable than ozone paste then yes i would definately have a go. How do i buy some?
- As ofr it lasting over such a long period im suprised as well. When i noticed it intially the koi wasnt eating and was pinkish. I carried out the AB's and the wound began to heal and the koi started eating so i left alone. The koi is still eating normally. As i say it was purely a clean cut on the inside of the mouth so there was nothing to clean out so i thought best just to prevent. As i say now this a re-emerged although the original damage is healing but its this sweilling that concerns me...

Thanks again
Ben

[benyiii]

Ok here are the pics taken tonight during second treatment of koi clear and amicicin. I think the area is slightly improved since i cleaned it out properly, switched ab's and statred with koi clear but could be wrong... btw pics on the towle are after application of koi clear

koi is just over 60cm btw

Any help on contd treatment really appreciated as worried about this

- ct?
- mfr1?
- etc....

[benyiii]

You can see the very small comparative slit on the second to last pic that statred on the inside which has pretty much healed, unfotunately it has spread outside

[tomc]

Hi Ben

I'm finding it really, really hard to make anything out on the photos prior to treatment as they are so out of focus.

By foreign object - it could be anything... a sharp bit of twig, a sliver of fibreglass etc. I once found a showa with a piece of K1 embedded in the roof of its mouth (well actually, the salt bath found it as the koi looked pristine but when vertically out of the bowl when put in the bath! so suggesting I better have another look )

Think of when you get a splinter and how it stays infected until it is cleaned out.

In this case, I think it may just be infection that has burst out of the original inner section to the outer section. Certainly not great looking. Ideally, QT tank, heat, CT, but I don't think you can do this?

Tom

[benyiii]

Ponds at 24.5, so perhaps some ct might be an idea, otherwise i guess just carry on as im doing...

[benyiii]

Ok so since started the topical regime have done four treatments in total two injections of amicacin and two susbsequent back to fortum again. Have been treating on sat, mid week then sat again intervals. I also pp'd the pond about 10 days ago to ensure it was clean and will chloramine t as advsed from now on. After third treatment mid last week seemed to be doing ok but not that much progress and now today it seems to have gone backwards and am now very concerned?? Please advise re the pics below which are take today. Why is in not healing and what do i need to be doing????

[Gazza]

Hi Ben,

What and how did you carry out the topical treatments and what with

[benyiii]

koi clear five times in total having first cleaned it out, as i say when i last netted and treated it had changed little from the first pics then three days later its become very bloody and seems to have spread although not sure...swelling i think is going down but really not sure why its not winning...wound seems clean to me so my thinking is to stop topically treating to give it a chance to heal, increase ab's and do more intenlely with amicicin as this seemed to be working a three strong doses of ct...any thoughts, what would you suggest?

To summarise the timeline so far

- fish stopped feeding so netted and saw slice inside lower lip
- injected twice with fortum, fish started eating so left alone
- three weeks later notice swelling in cheek, fish still eating normally, slice on inside healing well
- two fortum again but no change so got concered
- cleaned out with salt and pp
- two days later koi clear and amicin
- then treating on sat, mid week, and sat intervals did another amicicin and then back to fortum twice, koi clear each time. Fish eating normally no real progress although sweilling seemed to be coming down
- then neeted up today for fifth topical and found it very bloody and seems worse although could be wrong, whats your thoughts between the two sets of pics?


Thanks

[benyiii]

So am off on holiday on mon which is an added annoyance so plan to ct @ 2g/100g wed, thurs, fri, inject amicin on wed, fri and sun...