Costia in faeces??

[kayoss]

Hi All

My koi have not been 100% since I rebuilt my pond and I've identified several problems over recent months that I've dealt with - or at least thought I had!!!

I've had persistent nitrite problems, but my water quality has improved lately. A couple of moths ago I had flukes and treated successfully with supaverm, and then a few weeks ago I found costia on a couple of my koi. I added 0.6% salt to the pond to treat the costia and hopefully give the koi a bit of a tonic, but they are still looking pretty listless and, although they are eating all the food eventually, they're not really attacking it as healthy koi do! Also, a few of them still have a reddish tinge to their fins - especially the pecs.

Anyway, I've scraped 5 koi this morning and found nothing whatsoever on them. Then, when I went to clean the filters, I noticed several large, white/cream coloured faeces that appeared to be covered in a clear/transparent gel - something I don't remember ever seeing before and certainly not normal in my pond. I squashed a bit of the faeces between a couple of slides, added a small amount of pond water and put it under the microscope. There's obviously something in the faeces and it moves in a similar agitated fashion as costia, but doesn't look like the costia I've seen before.

Not the best quality video I know, but all I could get with the scope on 400x magnification and a USB camera attached, but can anyone tell me what it is and, more importantly, how to treat it please?

Cheers

Bob

[kayoss]

Has no one got any thoughts or ideass of what this could be?

Currently doing an 80% water change to reduce the salinity just in case I need to use a treatment that won't go with salt!

Any comments welcome - even if it's only suggestions of what other tests I can do or avenues I can investigate!

Cheers

Bob

[Duncan]

hi Bob

the picture is not that clear mate i for one am not sure what im looking at

in feaces the first thing that comes to mind is hexameter so im going to go in thew first instance for hexameter

you will need metronedazole for these critters i'll have a look see what io have in stock at this time

dunc

[kayoss]

Hi Dunc

Thanks for the info. I'll try to get some clearer photos/videos. Will they need to be 400x mag for hexamita or will they be clear enough at 100x? The scope is clear enough, but the usb camera is not the best - and gets worse at higher magnifications!

Cheers

Bob

[Duncan]

nope mate you wont see hexameter at 100 you will need at least 400 to see them maybe more and phasxe contrast to see them clearly

i have enough metronoidazole for you to make up 250 gm of feed and this will be split into 5 days if you need more that will skin me out but i can do it that would make you 500gm

you need to have enough prepared food for 5 days so if you feed 250 in that time one card will do you

heres the preparation

Best by far, if the disease is not to advanced and the fish is still feeding, is Metronidazole as a food additive at 1% by weight = 10 mg per 1 gm or one 250mg tablet to 25 gm of pellets of food daily for 5 days mixed with warm water and agar or knox gelatine, divide into daily portions and freeze and thaw daily as needed.

[Duncan]

hi Bob

found some more so we can go for around 500gm of feed for a five day period

dunc

[kayoss]

Hi Dunc

Thanks for the advice and offer of the AB but, TBH, I haven't got a clue which koi the faeces came from so can't isolate it and be sure other fish don't get to the food first or make sure it gets the correct dose! Presumably that would also create a risk of the Hexamita developing an immunity to the AB?

Found another white faeces and did the same to that, but found nothing like I did on the last one, so really can't be sure that it is Hexamita and not anything else - and I think it will be better to get a definite diagnosis before deciding a course of treatment.

Fortunately all the koi are still eating, although they're not attacking the food as healthy koi should and, unless it's soaked to soften it, several of them just spit it out. Several have a red tinge to their fins too, but there are no sores or ulcers to be seen and none seem to be getting any worse.

For the time being, I think I'll keep a close eye on them, take some more scrapes and hope to find something definite.

Thanks again

Bob

[Duncan]

Bob

you have got it wrong mate, you treat all the fish you dont isolate the fish i understand you cant tell which produced the sample so the usual proceedure is to treat everything

but its your call mate just be aware that these critter4s are easy to deal with with the right application

dunc

[kayoss]

Hi Dunc

Several koi's fins reddened even more last night and I suspect it's a bacterial problem based on the fact that an 80% water change to reduce the salt level appears, if anything, to have made matters worse - maybe the salt was holding things back a bit?

Anyway, I started with a CT treatment (first dose last night @ 60gm in 4800 gallons) and will add similar doses tonight and tomorrow. Normal dose on label says 1 - 2 gm per 100 gallons - but I am not confident enough to go to the full dose and settled for 1.25gm per 100 gallon. My pH is fairly consistent at 8.2, so will this be strong enough? I'll let you know how things go anyway.

I'm still not sure that it was Hexamita in the faeces and only suspected Costia because of the similarity in the eratic movements - what I saw was not shaped like any Costia I've seen before and were much smaller. Does Hexamita move in a similar fashion to Costia, and is it much smaller?

Cheers

Bob

[sam51]

hi bob, if you have hexamita,it is a contagious disease.in a more advanced stage you will notice small holes in the head,and weight loss.
this was a problem when i keeped discus fish years ago.as it was a ciclid disease.now seems to be happening to koi and goldfish.
i use to get flagyl from the local vet.so speak to the one where you take your dogs.this might save you from clearing duncan out.

[kayoss]

Hi Guys

Took some photos of a couple of tail fins - seem to be thickening up as well as getting redder!

First two are a 50-55cm kohaku and the second two are goshiki that's probably close to 60cm - just examples, but typical of the signs on quite a few koi now!









Thanks for info on Flagyl Sam.

Cheers

Bob

[sam51]

looks like a bacteria problem.could be something to do with your high ammonia and nitrite.

[kayoss]

looks like a bacteria problem.could be something to do with your high ammonia and nitrite.

Hi Sam

As I said when we spoke yesterday, the Ammonia and Nitrite are sorted - and have been for some weeks. The readings for both are exactly the same in the pond as they are for my tap water and the Nitrate readings are (or were before my massive water change) at the top of the API test kit scale - so the filters are obviously working as they should!

Cheers

Bob

[kayoss]

Hi All

Just a quick update.

Completed the 5 days feed with food soaked in ABs from Duncan towards the end of last week. The fins, particularly on the Kohaku and Goshiki I photographed do look better than they did, though still not right. Also, several of my other koi still have slightly pink/stresed looking fins and skin.

Decided to just sit and watch for a week or so again now to see what/if anything changes. If nothing else it will confirm that it's not just my continual interfering and treatments that's stressing them!

Cheers

Bob

[kimr]

Hi Bob

It is hard to not do something when you know something is wrong but jumping in with both feet is not always the best, also we know something that doesn't look right so we it stick under the scope and see things that we havn't a clue if they are good or bad right or wrong passed by the koi or managed to to get on the sample since leaving the koi. So we have nothing to compare it with. When I first got my scope I was told to take a sracpe from an airstone and I wouldn't believe what I would see, and they were right. We tend to only look through the scope when we are looking for parasites but how many of us actually use it to learn what is right and what is not in our ponds. Many of us hardly ever need to use the scope so when we do and we something on there we havn't seen before how do we know what we are looking at. You have had costia in the pond so it is possible they could of got on the sample in the pond. The only way to know who has passed anything is if you have one bowled and they pass a sample for you to look at.

When you think about what your Koi have been through lately, they have a new pond, you had problems with the water, then flukes then costia, so they have been through quite a bit, they could just be stressed and some of them are taking a little longer to recover. I hope they start to recover soon for you so you can enjoy what is left of the summer with them.

Take care