Cosmetic Surgery Anyone ?

[Gazza]

Hi Guys,

So what are your thought on this in any way shape or form

[Brockp]

Hi Gazz;

Does you get given something to sharpen a stick to stick us with on a wuiet Saturday night ?

I just wrote something anf then thought of the lynch mob riding to hang me at dawn, so I am going to save it and see which way the wind blows........ I can think of several minor cosmetic things that I would be happy to do.....what does everybody else think ?

Peter

[greg]

Knew this subject would crop up at some point and have kinda been waiting for it as it can offer to VERY DIFFERENT view points.

I'm gonna take a step back for now along with Peter and let some others get involved on this one first, as it will be good to see all viewpoints.

[tomy2ponds]

Ok I will start the ball rolling yes but only minor things like shimmies so far

[Gazza]

Hi Guys,

Well Pete and Greg thats a good start i hope we all don't sit on the fence on this one that was my idea

I myself have carried out numerous procedure on fish with the odd shimmie removal (touch wood not had to do one of these for some time ) and even sorted out the odd rouge scale that was obviously never supposed to be there in the first place. Removal of secondary Hi on the odd scale here and there and even a bit on a gill plate so Ive had a little dabble here and there at helping my fish look better.

I wonder if like women that once we make them look better they feel better

All the fish i have carried out these works on have had no kind of any reactions or problems and had no long lasting health issues so i think as long as these type of procedures are carried out in the correct manor then there is nothing wrong with a bit of cosmetic surgery.

[StuW]

Will be removing the Hi from the cheek of a kohaku I got last year as it is a cracking fish and this just spoils it for my enjoyment, would also remove shimmies if they stopped me enjoying the fish.
Bottom line is if it is likely to cause the fish excess trauma or be too big a risk for the benifits then I wouldnt do it and that would be that. Good question... hope I dont have to dodge any bullets

[tomc]

Boy, some people must have sore bottoms or simply follow the herd {I'm jesting, Greg}

Anything goes as far as I'm concerned. Anything goes providing it's done in a manner that with a good possible procedure.

The reality is:
1/ The % of major show winners in Japan have probably been edited to some degree over their lives, possibly just blemishes, possibly more.
2/ A majority of Japanese breeders edit their tosai. This may include remove stray beni, cutting head patterns, cutting body patterns, improving kiwa. Any signficant engineering is done at tosai. Beyond that it's management of blemishes or redoing previous work.

Ethically? I have no strong view. Given most of the population eats fish then I kind of shrug when it comes to the ethics of editing. As for fairness/ethics of showing - editing is done, so best we accept it. And if done well it's undectable.

Tom

[greg]

OK - So given that the BKKS JSC and koi judges in general will expel your koi from koi shows for this kind of thing then either:-

a). Don't do it

b). Do it VERY well

c). Don't show

Now i know this subject came up at the recent "presidents weekend" and there was a hobbyist who was brave enough to stand up and say "we know it happens, i agree with it and would do it all day long to my koi if needed" the reaction seemed to be one of dismay. There is however a realization among hobbyists who have been in the hobby a while that it happens (especially in Japan by the breeders) and we need to get used to that. There needs to be a line though and i actually don't think that many hobbyists will ever need to cross it or will have the skills to:-

So what about the line...

Well it seems universally OK to remove a Shimmie with your finger nail off the top of a scale, then it is a small step to finely keeping the removal even more local by using a scalpel. Then you have the shimmie type under the scale (or on top of the scale underneath and shining through) - again it seems no big issue to remove with a scalpel blade.

Onto secondary Hi - easy enough to use a secondary Hi remover to take this off and there are at least 3 different products that i know of currently around to do this and IMO it is pretty un-invasive when done on the head etc. Then the little bits you get in the fukurin look just as easy as long as you keep things local. Scales seem to be regarded as more tricky due to possible reaction to the products used getting into scale pockets etc. So your left with the sclapel option again - this could be tricky as your down to physically scraping the secondary off or removing the scale.

This is about where the line is IMO that a hobbyist should be doing - as removing fully coloured scales is pattern alteration. Same as cutting tancho spots etc etc.

I know it goes on, i neither really agree its OK nor really agree its bad - i certainly wouldn't "grass" anyone who did this kinda stuff. I think it needs to stay where it is - nicely under the carpet but aware it goes on. Last thing we need is people like the animal rights people or various veterinary bodies being aware. People who are in the hobby a longer time will hear about it when the time is right for them and they will if they want too, acquire the skills and tools required to do it. There is nothing we can or should do about this - some things are just left beast unsaid.

[tomc]

Hi Greg

Well considered post. Out of interest then...

So how many koi have been expelled in the last 5 years from UK koi shows as a result of being cut/edited/cosmetically altered?

I'm guessing it's tending towards 0.

Tom

[Duncan]

hi guys

while your all debating hi remover and shimmy removal i dont think you have grasped the true implication of question Gazza asked
the BKKS show judges have certainly been passing modified fish off for donkeys years, so consider this:

there is hardley any such thing as a near perfect round tancho its almost like winning the lottery to get one of these naturally most of them are man made as tossia, so it follows tancho winners will have been man made bonifide modified

if you want to know which are modified go for the near perfectr round ones look at the edges you will see little tiny cuts into what looks like a perfect edge this is the result of what once was a prefect cut line growing out as the koi gets older

there is one major show winning breeder in Japan that has a work shop that will make you any koi your heart desires, you want an inazumma no problem you got one! a perfect three step again no problem !

he will take the complete side of a cheek off to the bone not only to get shot of secondary hi but to eliminate any chance of it ever coming back

i have seen myself top shots of winners that have had obvious peck fin balancing

these fish go all over the world and win prizes at most shows and if this guy does it you can bet a lot of them do it the technology is not exclusive its naive to think we have not been judging these prior to the BKKS stance and its arrogance on the part of the BKKS to think they are going to spot these

just some food for thought

dunc

[tomc]

Dunc

There's apparently a mobile van cutting service too. Some very skilled individuals!

Not to be pedantic (but going to be), but I think you'll find I made your key points previously!

Tom

[Duncan]

sorry tom you know what its like when the juices flow?

dunc

[tomc]

Juices flowing on a Sunday morning ... uh no... normally trying to recover some brain cells!

I know speaking with some recent visitors to Japan that the cutting crews were out in force. As you say, they can transform a pattern in front of your eyes. And you'd never know the difference.

Japan show winners were getting "edits" (to head) just 3 days before the show and you could not tell at the show.

I think we also have to accept that "edits" are necessary if you want to keep your koi looking as they were sold (not going to say born!) or as your ambition desire was for them. I have a little list of edits to do presently. Some I will simply not do and just leave and see. Others need to get done.

Tom

[greg]

Duncan / Tom,

I suspect your both very right and this is a side of the hobby we need to be careful with as despite certain "alledged" drives to stop this practice at breeder level i suspect it will always go on. The things you guys are talking about are exactly the kind of stuff i'm talking about that will be beyond nearly ALL hobbyists in this country i suspect and they from my understanding need to take place when the koi is tosai to enable the work to heal / be hidden.

So am i right in assuming that typically tosai bought in the country will have either:-

a). Already been worked

b). Not deemed worth working

c). Not needed any work

So the hobbyist at this level has no need for interference on a major level. We are then back to minor stuff - shimmie removal, secondary Hi Removal etc. Now given the fact of how minor intrusive this is and if done right is supposedly totally undetectable then there is no reason for the BKKS to have a concern. I wouldn't have a clue how many of our "show koi" over recent years have had this kind of work - but more than the general public would ever need / want to know i suspect.

As for Tom's question of koi being excluded - i'd agree that your right it will be close to if not - zero - because if it happened you'd hear about it i'm sure. I seem to remember seeing a dvd with a vat covered over at the SE Show and this had a sign on it saying that the koi had been excluded due to "cosmetic surgery" but cannot be certain of this.

The other bit that concerns me is that if the BKKS make the leap to trying to exclude koi that the breeder altered 3 years ago when the koi was tosai. I can understand them trying to keep the knife out of inexperienced hands of the general hobbyist and prevent cruelty to koi by people who do not have the knowledge to do such things thinking they can turn a sows ear into a silk purse with a few swishes of a scalpel. That makes sense to me and when you then link it with the points i made in my post above about various veterinary bodies then the stance of the society makes sense as they cannot be seen to encourage it. Realistically a lot of people within the hobby will find it cruel - let alone those outside of the hobby!! - so even being general public knowledge that the breeders do it is a dangerous thing. I think this is grasped very well by Mark Gardner (in his blog) as in his time out there if it is as widespread as it is apparently then he must have seen it but with no mention at all of it ever on his blog that is to me the sensible "public" approach.


Ultimately i'd guess the breeder will make the decision if the koi is "worth working" at a young age - if it is, he will if needed - then the maintenance falls to whoever owns the koi in the future wether its left in Japan for showing there or is bought home to a pond elsewhere. If the breeder left the wonky / ill shaped tancho OR full Hi on the gill plate OR Ippon Hi pattern (for examples) then he deemed the koi not worth messing with and realistically it cannot be worth the hobbyist messing about to try to rectify.

[greg]

I have a little list of edits to do presently. Some I will simply not do and just leave and see. Others need to get done.

Tom,

What kind of "edits" are you talking about? Minor stuff such as Shimmie removal / secondary Hi i take it.

I'm sure there is a pretty high level of understanding on this section so how about - could you do a "before and after" pictures with a brief description of what you did and how. Then maybe a final picture of the healed koi. If req'd take the pictures in a way that no-one will recognize the koi if they saw it in the future - ie:- close ups.

Be interesting i think and add a dimension to this topic that you'll not get on a "public" forum.