This Section Is For Advanced Hobbyists Discussing new original cutting edge Experimental and Trial Treatments and Surgical Techniques, here we take koi health and pond keeping to the next level
On saturday i noticed a shiro had a couple of slightly red scales through the pond window. I bowled it up and found it had raised scales along the bottom half of the fish. I turned it over to check the underside expecting to find marks caused by rubbing from sitting on the bottom but it was al clean. Did scrapes and found flukes-ive now treated the pond for the flukes. The shiro with the bacterial infection has been moved into my heated pond, ive raised the temp as quick as i dare, should be up to 22degrees by the morning, ive salted the pond to .3% and checked ph @ 8.4-going to hit it with chloramine t this evening with a fairly heavy dose to try and sort it out. Any thoughts on what dose would be best?
I would hit it hard with the CT as you have a high PH and dose every day for three days so dose on day 1 2 & 3 and i would hope that would take the sting out of it but remember to keep an eye on things so do the treatment when you are going to be there for a good few hours just in case. I would also get the temperature much higher at least over 25c.
Il keep raising temp over next few days til about 25 degrees. How quickly can i bring temp up-been raising 3 degrees a day as want to get on top of it asap-is that a bit fast?
I have another concern and that is the area that appears denuded exposing the subcutaneous layers. Do the experts think it would be a good idea to seal this area? We would all benefit from some advice, sometimes it is the large area injuries ( like burns) that are more risky that the deaper localised wounds.
From Duncan and Gazzas posts on a previous thread I think I am right in thinking one of the advantages of using C/T is that it will cauterise any open wounds
I understand the rationale behind the use of C/T and the cauterising properties.
I am just concerned that with such a large area damaged the potential for water to get into the fish over and above that which the kidneys can cope is enormous.
It would be interesting to hear what Gazza or Duncan or any of the others think about sealing or not sealing a, what appears to be, a large area of damage.
To me this doesn't look like physical damage to the koi which would need topical / sealing so no i wouldn't act in this manner. More of an infection coming from the inside to out causing raising of scales and blood vessels showing etc. There are a couple of scales on the shoulder which to me look like they may possibly be damage but this is secondary to the major issue of the infection and the koi is not going to be in a good physical condition to address this in terms of healing until you sort the internal / infection issue.
I would leave well alone in terms of squeezing out any fluid etc and this simply opens up the koi to taking on outside bacteria etc. Heat and CT or PHS - if needed boosted by AB's but i would give it a week before hitting the koi with AB's as i feel this is one that is able top be turned around.
Important to get on top of water parameters here too. The cleaner a system is and the better the readings then the better / quicker the heal rate will be. If wanted i will detail my full plan of action later / tomorrow but i'm rushing out to work now.
Uou are totally right I have to hang my head in shame Serves me right for trying to look at pictures on my Blackberry. Just got home and seen the pictures on the computer....silly me.
Thanks for the response. The photos aren't very good-the red areas along the top of the koi aren't actually open wounds but red areas under the scales, hence the reason i havent topically treated etc, also this koi doesnt like being bowled and will always red up. My main concern was to get on top of the bacterial infection as in my mind this is by far the biggest threat to the koi. Once the bacterial infection is sorted i will look at any wounds and deal with any flukes that survive the chloramine t.
Ive got the temp up to 24degrees now, ive stopped feeding and parameters are good so fingers cross things should start to improve.
Greg would be good if you could let us know what your plan of action would be with something like this.
sorry i missed this one but in fairness i have been off work bvad with a really bad cold
right im almost certain this is an internal bacterial infection which is shutting the kidney's down and you have the start of dropsy evident i can say this with some confidence because the degree is swelling is equal both sides of the fish
my advice would be to both heat to 26-28 c and slowly raise the salinity to at least 0.6% /1oz per gallon inject with a broad spectrum antibiotic (aka Baytril)
and add Chloramine T over three days once you have this fish in thre ball park of the required salinity and heat range
i would need to know how hard your water is first before i could make a recomendation to the dose of C/T
Sorry to hear u've not been well-hope ur on the mend!
Bit of an update:
Yesterday:
Temp up to 24 degrees,2nd dose of chloramine T, fish still very red with raised scales appearing around the tail stop area-looked really nasty. Didnt photograph as didnt want to stress fish.
Today:
Temp up to 26 degrees, 3rd dose of chloramine T, much less redness generally on the fish, hardly any signs of raised scales at all on the fish. Took one quick photo as a photo speaks a thousand words:
Dunc-would you still advise to raise salt to 0.6%? Was planning on a large water change tommorrow to freshen things up.
Sorry life took over and i have only just got to this.... seems i'm now way too late with Duncan being on the case and he has pretty much covered where i would have gone.
BIG IMPROVEMENT in the 2nd lot of pictures though - well done and makes pretty much redundant my comments below.
For me one of the most important and basic things i always carry out are:-
i). Checking gallonage
ii). Filter cleaning - IMO clean water is one of the most overlooked healing tools.
iii). double checking dosages of meds - as Dunc has said this is vital with CT
I also think that your koi was showing signs of drospy and this makes the job harder to my mind and you may need to be ready to increase the salinity again to 0.9% due to the osmoregulation of the koi etc.
If you feel you need to add in AB's to this then i think Nuflour is maybe the best option for a couple of reason's. First up it is oil based and needs a larger needle and so will need to go into the body cavity. This eases the pressure on the kidneys which are already under immense pressure due to the infection. Also i understand Nuflour has a slow release time so with the CORRECT dose you might only need to lift and inject the koi once reducing the stress etc.
