I have a flow 550 and i also believe my waste is a little more than the product water
RO system query - mechanical
Moderators: B.Scott, vippymini, Gazza, Manky Sanke
Hmm, same here so not that then!
Did I mention that as you have a higher production rate than myself I've treated my system to a rope heater?
I ordered this today, 500w @ 240v, 3m of elemement, which should cover about 1' of the feed pipe to the RO system when tightly wound. I'm going to insert a couple of feet of copper pipe into the pvc feedline as that will conduct better. if that isn't enough I'll keep adding them until it is!
I looked for an inline heater with a small enough bore but to no avail, so Jane's idea it is!
Cost £25 plus vat and postage so worth a try. I am also considering fitting a coil of pipe inside my filter, where the water is 19c at the moment. This would be connected to the RO feed line, might help.
If I cannot get production high enough to suit my needs I'll sell this system and buy a larger one. I can manage fine with this if it produced at least 150 gpd at the coldest time of year, but so far it doesn't. Ro-man has said he can replicate any system for considerably less cost, so I might ask him to quote me for a copy of the better systems, kent for one plus the Avon for example.
Chi
Chi
Did I mention that as you have a higher production rate than myself I've treated my system to a rope heater?
I ordered this today, 500w @ 240v, 3m of elemement, which should cover about 1' of the feed pipe to the RO system when tightly wound. I'm going to insert a couple of feet of copper pipe into the pvc feedline as that will conduct better. if that isn't enough I'll keep adding them until it is!
I looked for an inline heater with a small enough bore but to no avail, so Jane's idea it is!
Cost £25 plus vat and postage so worth a try. I am also considering fitting a coil of pipe inside my filter, where the water is 19c at the moment. This would be connected to the RO feed line, might help.
If I cannot get production high enough to suit my needs I'll sell this system and buy a larger one. I can manage fine with this if it produced at least 150 gpd at the coldest time of year, but so far it doesn't. Ro-man has said he can replicate any system for considerably less cost, so I might ask him to quote me for a copy of the better systems, kent for one plus the Avon for example.
Chi
Chi
Hi Chester, I can see where you're at with regard to reprocessing the pond water through a sediment filter. However there's little chemical benefit to be had, it becomes a small mechanical cartridge filter really.
Adding RO membranes in there will definitely not work, regardless how clean you get the water before feeding the RO membrane(s) it will always be much dirtier than mains water. The RO membranes are really very delicate items, unlike the prefilter cartridges, and RO membranes are ruddy expensive.
I'd like to think it were possible, but no matter how long I consider it it's just not possible.
Chi
Adding RO membranes in there will definitely not work, regardless how clean you get the water before feeding the RO membrane(s) it will always be much dirtier than mains water. The RO membranes are really very delicate items, unlike the prefilter cartridges, and RO membranes are ruddy expensive.
I'd like to think it were possible, but no matter how long I consider it it's just not possible.
Chi
OK Gazza and all, I have news.
Fitted the RO man cartridges today, little or no difference, flow still pathetic.
Spoke to RO man, who suggested it sounded like RO membranes were clogged. To test I removed the output (product) pipe from each in turn and fed the output to a measuring jug. He was right, very poor, he was also right in predicting the top membrane would be worst, it was by far.
RO man talked through the system routines with me, and Oh dear, Oh dear, Oh dear!
I've been doing one thing wrong apparently, when installing new carbon cartridges I have not been disconnecting the RO membranes and flushing the output from the prefilters directly to waste, which is the correct method.
I had assumed that the flushing mode would achieve this, as I thought it was "backflushing", it doesn't! The flush mode simply routes all output to waste, it does not backflush. So, the debris flushed from the prefilter carbon cartridges is pushed through the RO membranes doing it my way,
no wonder they're naffed.
I rang Ro man to order some replacement RO membranes, but he advised me to wait as they are about to reduce in price!
I have tonight soaked the membranes in descaler for 1 hour in warm water, on refitting output has increased from 62 gpd to 71 gpd.
A lesson learned, RTFM!
Incidentally, another useful titbit, the CBR2 carbon cartridges from RO man are rated at 8000 gallon life expectancy, more than double most others, another lesson learned.
My final lesson today was that if you treat RO man gently he is helpful and knowledgeable, but one must tread softly!
Chi
Fitted the RO man cartridges today, little or no difference, flow still pathetic.
Spoke to RO man, who suggested it sounded like RO membranes were clogged. To test I removed the output (product) pipe from each in turn and fed the output to a measuring jug. He was right, very poor, he was also right in predicting the top membrane would be worst, it was by far.
RO man talked through the system routines with me, and Oh dear, Oh dear, Oh dear!
I've been doing one thing wrong apparently, when installing new carbon cartridges I have not been disconnecting the RO membranes and flushing the output from the prefilters directly to waste, which is the correct method.
I had assumed that the flushing mode would achieve this, as I thought it was "backflushing", it doesn't! The flush mode simply routes all output to waste, it does not backflush. So, the debris flushed from the prefilter carbon cartridges is pushed through the RO membranes doing it my way,
no wonder they're naffed.
I rang Ro man to order some replacement RO membranes, but he advised me to wait as they are about to reduce in price!
I have tonight soaked the membranes in descaler for 1 hour in warm water, on refitting output has increased from 62 gpd to 71 gpd.
A lesson learned, RTFM!
Incidentally, another useful titbit, the CBR2 carbon cartridges from RO man are rated at 8000 gallon life expectancy, more than double most others, another lesson learned.
My final lesson today was that if you treat RO man gently he is helpful and knowledgeable, but one must tread softly!
Chi
Chi
Can you expand on your thoughts of how the water will block the membranes
My 5 micron filters regulary clog with sediment from mains water so the RO unit is already dealing with particles under 5 microns, they must exist within the mains water system
If the the pond water has passed through a prefilter with a 5 micron size if not smaller then onto the actual membranes surely these ultra fine particles will be rejected by the mebrane, in the same way that the other waste matter is rejected in a normal mains water setup , remember , the tds of the water going into the membranes is/should be at your required level anyway, so from that point of view the work load of your membranes has already been reduced to start with, but because this is waste water you can afford to play around with the reducers on the waste outlet, even if you have a 50% flow to waste thats 50% of water recycled. I dont think this will work with a screwed down system, so it may be the volume to waste that will directly effect the life of the membrane and any biological activity happening in the membranes will kill them dead
Remember this is an idea for a water metered house, if it was not for the meter, then I would not be visiting it myself
look forward to your thoughts
Chester
Edit note
Have just reread your post chi about the carbon killing your membranes, do you think you would have been ok if the water had been filtered between the carbon and the ro units.
Can you expand on your thoughts of how the water will block the membranes
My 5 micron filters regulary clog with sediment from mains water so the RO unit is already dealing with particles under 5 microns, they must exist within the mains water system
If the the pond water has passed through a prefilter with a 5 micron size if not smaller then onto the actual membranes surely these ultra fine particles will be rejected by the mebrane, in the same way that the other waste matter is rejected in a normal mains water setup , remember , the tds of the water going into the membranes is/should be at your required level anyway, so from that point of view the work load of your membranes has already been reduced to start with, but because this is waste water you can afford to play around with the reducers on the waste outlet, even if you have a 50% flow to waste thats 50% of water recycled. I dont think this will work with a screwed down system, so it may be the volume to waste that will directly effect the life of the membrane and any biological activity happening in the membranes will kill them dead
Remember this is an idea for a water metered house, if it was not for the meter, then I would not be visiting it myself
look forward to your thoughts
Chester
Edit note
Have just reread your post chi about the carbon killing your membranes, do you think you would have been ok if the water had been filtered between the carbon and the ro units.
We must look beyond the function of the membranes, the amount of fines in pondwater is several zillion percent higher than in tapwater, regardless of how you prefilter it. The effort required to remove those fines at the sediment prefilter stage would require a cartridge per day, I use one every 14 days filtering tapwater. The same is true of any carbon filter cartridges, and these are much more expensive. I've got down to around 40% efficiency on my RO membranes in just 6 months of half decent tapwater, they'd last a month or less on pondwater and cost £50 each.
The sheer volume of sub 5 micron particles would I believe swamp the membranes, resulting in the system stalling very quickly.
It's not just mechanical capability but financial practicality, even the manufacturers have explicitly excluded such usage. Any guarantee is nulled if used for anything other than tapwater treatment, because they know the problems. If there were a viable way to deploy the equipment for pondwater treatment, rest assured the manufacturers would have marketed their products into that channel, it would have offered millions of pounds additional turnover each year.
As a user with intense practice recently I would not even consider testing the theory. The amount of sub 5 micron particles passing the sediment stage would clog the Carbon and or RO membranes in no time. For example, I wrongly flushed a set of new carbon cartridges just once, the resultant carbon fines entering the RO membranes reduced output by around 35% in just a few hours. And these were expensive Carbon cartridges which had already been acid Pre-washed!
I would like nothing better than someone to prove it can be done, but I have more plausible projects on my list at the moment. Before expending any cash or time on the idea I would first run the idea past an expert, and one who keeps koi himself. You could do much worse in this respect than run it past RO Man.
Chi
The sheer volume of sub 5 micron particles would I believe swamp the membranes, resulting in the system stalling very quickly.
It's not just mechanical capability but financial practicality, even the manufacturers have explicitly excluded such usage. Any guarantee is nulled if used for anything other than tapwater treatment, because they know the problems. If there were a viable way to deploy the equipment for pondwater treatment, rest assured the manufacturers would have marketed their products into that channel, it would have offered millions of pounds additional turnover each year.
As a user with intense practice recently I would not even consider testing the theory. The amount of sub 5 micron particles passing the sediment stage would clog the Carbon and or RO membranes in no time. For example, I wrongly flushed a set of new carbon cartridges just once, the resultant carbon fines entering the RO membranes reduced output by around 35% in just a few hours. And these were expensive Carbon cartridges which had already been acid Pre-washed!
I would like nothing better than someone to prove it can be done, but I have more plausible projects on my list at the moment. Before expending any cash or time on the idea I would first run the idea past an expert, and one who keeps koi himself. You could do much worse in this respect than run it past RO Man.
Chi
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Gazza
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Hi Chi,
Sounds like some improvement there then,i must admit i have found the RO man very helpful and does seem to know his stuff.He has told me before he wont use no crap so this could be a plus point
So i take it as you have changed your filters you did not disconnect the pri-filtration from the RO membranes and left to run for a while.How often do you carry out a flush on your system???
I have been keeping an eye on my filters and the pressure is still up high and the product water seems to be running fine and the unit has been performing very well on the pond and got it down to 120 so i am still pleased with the performance so far....till me water bil turns up!!
Sounds like some improvement there then,i must admit i have found the RO man very helpful and does seem to know his stuff.He has told me before he wont use no crap so this could be a plus point
So i take it as you have changed your filters you did not disconnect the pri-filtration from the RO membranes and left to run for a while.How often do you carry out a flush on your system???
I have been keeping an eye on my filters and the pressure is still up high and the product water seems to be running fine and the unit has been performing very well on the pond and got it down to 120 so i am still pleased with the performance so far....till me water bil turns up!!
chi, fully take on board your comments, my experience with ro water useage was a massive learning curve, luckily for me, i had mike as a mentor to lead me through this, however all of mikes stuff was based around free water, when i told him what my first water bill was, to say he was shocked was an understatment,
all of this idea is based on reducing water bills for me
some more thought to chew on
i did run this past the ro man and we did discuss a perpetual ro water system , he did go away to look for a pump that would allow pond water to be introduced with the mains water. i suspect he may have given up on that search, due to the validity of the suggestion. however he certainly didnt mention any concerns about membrane damage!!!!!!!
why would you need a carbon filter, on a recirculation system , everything ( chlorine, chloromine, metals etc ) should surely have been taken out first time through only build ups should be from the food, metabolic waste an
if i can recycle 20 cubic meters of water , with the costs i pay then i would look to break even on costs for membranes and filters. i have 2 years of water bills thanks to ro useage behind me
not saying im right or more likely wrong, just looking forward to sharing ideas
chester
all of this idea is based on reducing water bills for me
some more thought to chew on
i did run this past the ro man and we did discuss a perpetual ro water system , he did go away to look for a pump that would allow pond water to be introduced with the mains water. i suspect he may have given up on that search, due to the validity of the suggestion. however he certainly didnt mention any concerns about membrane damage!!!!!!!
why would you need a carbon filter, on a recirculation system , everything ( chlorine, chloromine, metals etc ) should surely have been taken out first time through only build ups should be from the food, metabolic waste an
if i can recycle 20 cubic meters of water , with the costs i pay then i would look to break even on costs for membranes and filters. i have 2 years of water bills thanks to ro useage behind me
not saying im right or more likely wrong, just looking forward to sharing ideas
chester
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vippymini
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ok i'll ad my thoughts on the pond water thing.
which has more dirt and suspended matter, pond water or ground water?
i would have thought it was ground water.
our good buddy Maurice uses ground water to supply his RO system so how does he cope?
i know his system cost thousands buit it is a tad bigger than your usual hobby model and it does produce a lot more gallons per day than any of us could use...
Maurice ! come on help us out here???
which has more dirt and suspended matter, pond water or ground water?
i would have thought it was ground water.
our good buddy Maurice uses ground water to supply his RO system so how does he cope?
i know his system cost thousands buit it is a tad bigger than your usual hobby model and it does produce a lot more gallons per day than any of us could use...
Maurice ! come on help us out here???
I think you will find that groundwater may have more dissolved minerals, but I know without doubt it would not have anything like the suspended fines the average pondwater has.
OK, I need to get something clear here, are we discussing reprocessing pondwater through an RO system, but minus carbon sections? If so I will drop any thoughts in that direction to simplify things. And could you please restate the intention of the excercise, specifically, as I would need to justify any time I allocated to the subject.
As to the suitability of 10" prefilter cartridges, consider the following. I have amongst other things a Waterco cartridge filter on my skimmer. The cartridges are 15" x 7.5", made from Polyester fibre, the pleated construction has 50 SQ feet of surface area capable of stopping debris down to 5 microns. It takes around 48 hours for one of these to totally clog up, what chance a 10" x 2" prefilter cartridge?
I do hear what your saying Chester and it's a great ambition for those on water meters, but some buses are just not for chasing. I will however revisit this in the future, for very few problems are insurmountable. It's all down to how necessary they are and the extent of any benefits, compared to the costs.
This could get interesting, or not!
Chi
OK, I need to get something clear here, are we discussing reprocessing pondwater through an RO system, but minus carbon sections? If so I will drop any thoughts in that direction to simplify things. And could you please restate the intention of the excercise, specifically, as I would need to justify any time I allocated to the subject.
As to the suitability of 10" prefilter cartridges, consider the following. I have amongst other things a Waterco cartridge filter on my skimmer. The cartridges are 15" x 7.5", made from Polyester fibre, the pleated construction has 50 SQ feet of surface area capable of stopping debris down to 5 microns. It takes around 48 hours for one of these to totally clog up, what chance a 10" x 2" prefilter cartridge?
I do hear what your saying Chester and it's a great ambition for those on water meters, but some buses are just not for chasing. I will however revisit this in the future, for very few problems are insurmountable. It's all down to how necessary they are and the extent of any benefits, compared to the costs.
This could get interesting, or not!
Chi
I will not be flushing any new carbon cartridges straight into the RO membranes again! Just installed a valved bypass line linked into the waste line. took the opportunity to tidy up a few other lines as well, it was beginning to look like the mad scientists lair in the filter house.
What pressure does your pump run at Gazza, or do you not have a guage inline?
Chi
What pressure does your pump run at Gazza, or do you not have a guage inline?
Chi
I got the Flowmaster meters from Ro man, one installed in the waste line and one on the mains input, the differential being the RO product volume.
My pressure guage shows 90 with new cartridges, but to be fair I've yet to find an accurate guage of the needle type generally supplied in the hobby. I have 4 in my system and intend to replace all of them with glycerine guages in the spring.
Chi
My pressure guage shows 90 with new cartridges, but to be fair I've yet to find an accurate guage of the needle type generally supplied in the hobby. I have 4 in my system and intend to replace all of them with glycerine guages in the spring.
Chi
Sorry for the delayed response Gazza, but in the last few days I've been in 4 countries! (including the UK)
When I fitted new carbon cart's I simply left the system on backflush (in fact a misnomer) for an hour, which I now know simply follows the normal flow path, but all water goes to waste. This allowed all carbon fines to enter the membranes, clogging them and causing the flowrate to drop drastically. All this because of a little fine carbon dust, and from carbon cart's which had previously been acid washed at that! The new bypass flushing line I've fitted will resolve this in future, without any disconnections, just one valve to close and one to open, then reverse an hour later.
The new carbon and sed' filters made no measurable difference to flow rate, so I will have to replace RO membranes in the very near future. Fortunately, as I have my water where I want it, the 70 gpd is sufficient to maintain the status quo in the short term. I shall order 3 Membranes when RO man has his new batch in, should be a few weeks.
In the longer term I need the higher output to maintain a full 125 gallon storage tank, which I use after flushing filters. At 150 gpd or higher I can maintain the pond water via the 4 to 1 RO and mains trickle feed, and keep the storage tank topped up. Currently I struggle to do this, a lot more work is required to keep things running perfectly smooth with such a low output.
I have the 2 new flowmeters in line now, the one in the mains feed shows 1.22 lpm, the one in the waste shows 1.01 lpm. So by my calculations I'm only producing 1/5th of a litre per minute, with 80% going to waste. This is because the RO membranes are naffed, each successive membrane in the series of 3 being worse than it's predecessor.
At least I'm learning something, but I'm annoyed I screwed up on the carbon cart' cleaning! I have been busy for the last few weeks and lost concentration. My wife says I lost several other things in that period, I recall plot, patience and others being mentioned!
Current readings:
TDS 120
EC 240 (I've noticed how the EC and TDS readings more accurately reflect the x 0.5 formula as the readings get lower in the range.)
KH 2 (just, I believe closer to 1.85 ish)
GH 4, maybe 5 max. I'd like to get this down to 3, but I have no wish to lower KH any further at this point. I am monitoring Nitrite etc every 3rd day just in case, no change yet.
PH 7.1
I have removed my brushes from the first bay of the multibay, as the brushes on the top of my vortex are now doing that job excellently, without interfering with the vortex action. (indeed it enhances it) I have replaced the brushes from the first bay with alfagrog, so I now have, first bay alfagrog, 2nd bay flocor, third bay jap mat, 4th bay jap mat. I also have a small shower type filter but in a box, with well oxygenated water flowing over 3 trays of alfagrog. That lot constitutes my bio section, the vortex, cartridge and sandfilter are purely mechanical.
I think that as I had no readable Nitrites prior to RO, I had reasonable bio capability, the extra bay should help with the reduced KH factors. Though as I'm trickling a 4 to 1 mix, with the pond overflow open, KH is constant and shouldn't be an issue I hope, providing bio conversion is not affected, which to date it hasn't been. I intend to mainatain KH between 2 and 3, but I'm damned if I can get GH down anymore without risking the KH. I will I think wait until my return from Spain in the new year, then I'll try dropping Gh to 3 and if KH falls below 2 throw some bicarb in!
I got a "rope" heater, £30 for a 3m x 5mm diameter kit, 500w at 240v. I wound it around a piece of 15mm copper tube, as that will conduct the heat better, and inserted the 2' length of copper tube into the PVC mains feed line to the RO system. I slipped a length of 40mm black plastic pipe over it to protect it, this promptly melted within 60 seconds! I have now bought 2 pieces of 40mm alloy flexitube, as used for air intakes etc on cars. Got the heavy duty stuff from Halfrauds and will refit tomorrow. Hopefully this will warm the feedwater enough to make a difference to the membrane flowrate.
The Shiro looks good, CT is a useful tool in the right hands!
Chi
When I fitted new carbon cart's I simply left the system on backflush (in fact a misnomer) for an hour, which I now know simply follows the normal flow path, but all water goes to waste. This allowed all carbon fines to enter the membranes, clogging them and causing the flowrate to drop drastically. All this because of a little fine carbon dust, and from carbon cart's which had previously been acid washed at that! The new bypass flushing line I've fitted will resolve this in future, without any disconnections, just one valve to close and one to open, then reverse an hour later.
The new carbon and sed' filters made no measurable difference to flow rate, so I will have to replace RO membranes in the very near future. Fortunately, as I have my water where I want it, the 70 gpd is sufficient to maintain the status quo in the short term. I shall order 3 Membranes when RO man has his new batch in, should be a few weeks.
In the longer term I need the higher output to maintain a full 125 gallon storage tank, which I use after flushing filters. At 150 gpd or higher I can maintain the pond water via the 4 to 1 RO and mains trickle feed, and keep the storage tank topped up. Currently I struggle to do this, a lot more work is required to keep things running perfectly smooth with such a low output.
I have the 2 new flowmeters in line now, the one in the mains feed shows 1.22 lpm, the one in the waste shows 1.01 lpm. So by my calculations I'm only producing 1/5th of a litre per minute, with 80% going to waste. This is because the RO membranes are naffed, each successive membrane in the series of 3 being worse than it's predecessor.
At least I'm learning something, but I'm annoyed I screwed up on the carbon cart' cleaning! I have been busy for the last few weeks and lost concentration. My wife says I lost several other things in that period, I recall plot, patience and others being mentioned!
Current readings:
TDS 120
EC 240 (I've noticed how the EC and TDS readings more accurately reflect the x 0.5 formula as the readings get lower in the range.)
KH 2 (just, I believe closer to 1.85 ish)
GH 4, maybe 5 max. I'd like to get this down to 3, but I have no wish to lower KH any further at this point. I am monitoring Nitrite etc every 3rd day just in case, no change yet.
PH 7.1
I have removed my brushes from the first bay of the multibay, as the brushes on the top of my vortex are now doing that job excellently, without interfering with the vortex action. (indeed it enhances it) I have replaced the brushes from the first bay with alfagrog, so I now have, first bay alfagrog, 2nd bay flocor, third bay jap mat, 4th bay jap mat. I also have a small shower type filter but in a box, with well oxygenated water flowing over 3 trays of alfagrog. That lot constitutes my bio section, the vortex, cartridge and sandfilter are purely mechanical.
I think that as I had no readable Nitrites prior to RO, I had reasonable bio capability, the extra bay should help with the reduced KH factors. Though as I'm trickling a 4 to 1 mix, with the pond overflow open, KH is constant and shouldn't be an issue I hope, providing bio conversion is not affected, which to date it hasn't been. I intend to mainatain KH between 2 and 3, but I'm damned if I can get GH down anymore without risking the KH. I will I think wait until my return from Spain in the new year, then I'll try dropping Gh to 3 and if KH falls below 2 throw some bicarb in!
I got a "rope" heater, £30 for a 3m x 5mm diameter kit, 500w at 240v. I wound it around a piece of 15mm copper tube, as that will conduct the heat better, and inserted the 2' length of copper tube into the PVC mains feed line to the RO system. I slipped a length of 40mm black plastic pipe over it to protect it, this promptly melted within 60 seconds! I have now bought 2 pieces of 40mm alloy flexitube, as used for air intakes etc on cars. Got the heavy duty stuff from Halfrauds and will refit tomorrow. Hopefully this will warm the feedwater enough to make a difference to the membrane flowrate.
The Shiro looks good, CT is a useful tool in the right hands!
Chi