Well having returned from Japan, I have decided to have far less fish in as much water as I can achieve within my current pond footprint.
My existing pond is just over 20 tons ( 4400 - 4500 galls ) and around 5 ft deep.
Question 1, would anyone consider a 10ft deep pond.
My thoughts are that with more depth would this encourage better body shape.
My intention is to use all my existing filtration, with the addition of a sieve and another skimmer, the pond design would be :
2 aerated bottom drains ( ****** )
The drains to be positioned at the front end of the pond ( closest to the filter room )
2 normal skimmers at the far end of the pond.
Use my existing 2 showers
Use my existing K1 Vortex set up, as well as my existing 7700 gall bead
Combine the skimmers using 50mm pipework then pump 4000 galls an hr from skimmers to one of the showers ( current arrangement is pumping 3000 galls an hour from the single skimmer.
Slope pond down to twin bottom drains ( a bit like a stream flow design but using conventional BD's )
One drain to pump 4000 through bead via K1 Vortex ( return pipework to be split so as to incorporate 110 UV and 230,000 btu heat exchanger )
Install returns at high level.
2nd BD via sieve, then straight over shower.
1200 galls an hour turnover ( will a realistic hope of an actual turnover of 10,000 gall once head loss etc has be taken into account )
Fiberglas
Maybe Ozone
So what do you guys and gals think
Regards
Andy
Improving my pond
Moderators: B.Scott, vippymini, Gazza, Manky Sanke
Well first off, you meant 12,000 gallons per hour turnover , not 1,200 ! Before everyone starts saying "not enough"!
I think you are on the right tracks.... keys for you:
* Don't put dirty water over the showers
* Think about skimmer placement so the koi can eat their food
* I know you have a bead for polishing
* Only real issue I see with depth is catching the damn koi ever again!
Planning temporary housing of the koi, and maturing the filters is the key thing.
Oh, and allowing 2x the amount of time you think it'll take !!
Tom
I think you are on the right tracks.... keys for you:
* Don't put dirty water over the showers
* Think about skimmer placement so the koi can eat their food
* I know you have a bead for polishing
* Only real issue I see with depth is catching the damn koi ever again!
Planning temporary housing of the koi, and maturing the filters is the key thing.
Oh, and allowing 2x the amount of time you think it'll take !!
Tom
Hi andy, rosy looks a rather nice mate, well done. 
ok, for me with question 1........ 10ft deep, don't think I'd myself go that deep main reason being catching the koi would be a nightmare, I know you like to show your koi mate could be quite a task getting them in the net.
For me the max would be 7 - 7.5
current pond footprint. ........If I was you now and you seem to be really keen on this upgrade....... go for a bigger footprint mate, hell why not Tom's talking about doing the just that this year himself.
+ it would be easier going down deeper with a wall out of the way....... Unless your just thinking of coming up another 3ft odd.
2 normal skimmers at the far end of the pond........How about the Certikin Professional skimmer's wish I'd used these myself, instead of having to convert my standard skimmer exit to 4" for my sieve which does work ok, but could be better.
Maybe Ozone .......... Got mine going in this week mate
....so Yes for me a good idea.
I've got lots of reading up info if you want it, or have a chat with Keith at the Barn, that fella knows his stuff.
Tony.
ok, for me with question 1........ 10ft deep, don't think I'd myself go that deep main reason being catching the koi would be a nightmare, I know you like to show your koi mate could be quite a task getting them in the net.
For me the max would be 7 - 7.5
current pond footprint. ........If I was you now and you seem to be really keen on this upgrade....... go for a bigger footprint mate, hell why not
Tom's talking about doing the just that this year himself.+ it would be easier going down deeper with a wall out of the way....... Unless your just thinking of coming up another 3ft odd.
2 normal skimmers at the far end of the pond........How about the Certikin Professional skimmer's wish I'd used these myself, instead of having to convert my standard skimmer exit to 4" for my sieve which does work ok, but could be better.
Maybe Ozone .......... Got mine going in this week mate
....so Yes for me a good idea.I've got lots of reading up info if you want it, or have a chat with Keith at the Barn, that fella knows his stuff.
Tony.
Hi Tom
Yep 12,000 galls an hour.
Regarding dirty water over showers - my current system sends 3000 galls straight from my skimmer, so there is an element of dirty water already.
My saving grace is using K1 as static, have around 6000 galls an hour running through my existing system all of which passes through static stage before the 2nd shower and bead.
If I cannot get my koi housed somewhere whilst the revamp is carried out, then I will get a 2000 gall vat, and use existing pond water and modify filtration - heat from existing set up.
I am lucky enough to own one of the big fancy Japanese’s nets ( 1m wide ) so hopefully catching them won't be a problem.
As for time, well I won't be doing the structural myself, get a price, get in done ASAP
Andy
Yep 12,000 galls an hour.
Regarding dirty water over showers - my current system sends 3000 galls straight from my skimmer, so there is an element of dirty water already.
My saving grace is using K1 as static, have around 6000 galls an hour running through my existing system all of which passes through static stage before the 2nd shower and bead.
If I cannot get my koi housed somewhere whilst the revamp is carried out, then I will get a 2000 gall vat, and use existing pond water and modify filtration - heat from existing set up.
I am lucky enough to own one of the big fancy Japanese’s nets ( 1m wide ) so hopefully catching them won't be a problem.
As for time, well I won't be doing the structural myself, get a price, get in done ASAP
Andy
Sounds like an interesting project.
The one thing I would say with a 10 foot deep pond is excavating it. Do You have room for a Bigger machine in the Garden, as a four 4 ton machine would get no where near that sort of depth. Something You may have to take into consideration.
That will be one hell of a deep pond. I thought Glenn & Annettes was deep enough. When I built that, at 8 foot 9 to the four bottom drains.
I remember having a conversation with the Nippon boys while I was doing some blockwork for them about depths of ponds. I remember them saying anything over six foot deep. They would advise resting areas ie a shelf at a lot less depth. Due to the pressure of water on the Koi at a 10 foot depth. Something that is used at the Momotaro Koi farm. I have never been lucky enough to of visited there but the larger Koi can been seen just lying on a shallow shelf for a rest. So I am told.
Do You plan to leave the exsisting pond walls all in place, and just come inside them and cut into Your slab. Then drop the depth by a further 5 foot? Or do You wish to rip it all out and start again?
Justin
The one thing I would say with a 10 foot deep pond is excavating it. Do You have room for a Bigger machine in the Garden, as a four 4 ton machine would get no where near that sort of depth. Something You may have to take into consideration.
That will be one hell of a deep pond. I thought Glenn & Annettes was deep enough. When I built that, at 8 foot 9 to the four bottom drains.
I remember having a conversation with the Nippon boys while I was doing some blockwork for them about depths of ponds. I remember them saying anything over six foot deep. They would advise resting areas ie a shelf at a lot less depth. Due to the pressure of water on the Koi at a 10 foot depth. Something that is used at the Momotaro Koi farm. I have never been lucky enough to of visited there but the larger Koi can been seen just lying on a shallow shelf for a rest. So I am told.
Do You plan to leave the exsisting pond walls all in place, and just come inside them and cut into Your slab. Then drop the depth by a further 5 foot? Or do You wish to rip it all out and start again?
Justin
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Gazza
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Hi Andy,
Sounds an interesting project but what is the reason for the upgrade by this i mean what are you looking to do
I would think 10ft is a bit deep to be honest and on a small footprint i cant see the advantages.I would think a bigger footprint would also work out easier due to digging out and block work with a existing wall already in place,or do you mean pulling down the walls as well
I cant see a problem on your filtration side and as you know getting a good flow over the showers is very important.I agree with Tom with the placement so that you don't end up loosing all of your food down the skimmers but if your using an auto-feeder you could use timers on the pumps
I like the idea of streamflows as anything that gets rid of waste easily and quick sounds good to me. That is why i built my QT with a drain at the opposite end to the shower and air with a slope to the drain and it works very well.
As for Ozone i have never tried one but don't like the idea of how dangerous they could be if the go wrong but i know there is a lot of good kit out there that that can keep these safe. What is your water like or what would you like your water to be like as i take it your looking at changing the supply water
Sounds an interesting project but what is the reason for the upgrade by this i mean what are you looking to do
I would think 10ft is a bit deep to be honest and on a small footprint i cant see the advantages.I would think a bigger footprint would also work out easier due to digging out and block work with a existing wall already in place,or do you mean pulling down the walls as well
I cant see a problem on your filtration side and as you know getting a good flow over the showers is very important.I agree with Tom with the placement so that you don't end up loosing all of your food down the skimmers but if your using an auto-feeder you could use timers on the pumps
I like the idea of streamflows as anything that gets rid of waste easily and quick sounds good to me. That is why i built my QT with a drain at the opposite end to the shower and air with a slope to the drain and it works very well.
As for Ozone i have never tried one but don't like the idea of how dangerous they could be if the go wrong
but i know there is a lot of good kit out there that that can keep these safe. What is your water like or what would you like your water to be like as i take it your looking at changing the supply water Hi Folks
Many thanks for the reply's.
The reason for enlarging my pond, is that my collection has outgrown theit habitat.
The past 5 years have been spent amassing my collection and improving the filtration and turnover and I must confess that, before I went to Japan, I was happy with my current set up, as I considered that pond turnover would kind of make up for lack of pond volume.
Having returned, ( and you really have to go there to appreciate ) I have realised that I ( in my own head ) had really been underestimating how good some of my existing fish are, and that if I want to improve them further, then I have to be particularly hard and reduce my numbers down to say 12 fish ( or maybe 15 ), but then give them as much water volume as can be achieved, hence the depth.
As some of you guys know, I haven’t got the biggest garden in the world, and the good lady couldn't cope with me nicking anymore, so depth is the only option, or maybe just settle for say 6000 galls, but is all the hassle of digging up a 225 concrete base ( with 20mm rebar ) for an additional 1500 galls worth it.
So I am at a bit of a cross roads, what ever happens I must fibreglass the pond ( existing G4 is starting to peel ).
Maybe I am being over the top
Yours
Perplexed
Many thanks for the reply's.
The reason for enlarging my pond, is that my collection has outgrown theit habitat.
The past 5 years have been spent amassing my collection and improving the filtration and turnover and I must confess that, before I went to Japan, I was happy with my current set up, as I considered that pond turnover would kind of make up for lack of pond volume.
Having returned, ( and you really have to go there to appreciate ) I have realised that I ( in my own head ) had really been underestimating how good some of my existing fish are, and that if I want to improve them further, then I have to be particularly hard and reduce my numbers down to say 12 fish ( or maybe 15 ), but then give them as much water volume as can be achieved, hence the depth.
As some of you guys know, I haven’t got the biggest garden in the world, and the good lady couldn't cope with me nicking anymore, so depth is the only option, or maybe just settle for say 6000 galls, but is all the hassle of digging up a 225 concrete base ( with 20mm rebar ) for an additional 1500 galls worth it.
So I am at a bit of a cross roads, what ever happens I must fibreglass the pond ( existing G4 is starting to peel ).
Maybe I am being over the top
Yours
Perplexed
Mist a view points raised.
Viewing the koi at depth, doesn’t really bother me, so long as I can see them at say 7-8 feet and of course when they feed, to check for fish health.
Skimmers, I already have 3000 galls an hour going through my skimmer, food is kept away from skimmer via 2 200mm air stone running of an independent hiblow 50. ( no food down the skimmers then ! )
Hiblow is turned off every night and kept on during the day, as Anne basically keeps the food going in a the graze theory ( like Cliff ) once the food has been eaten, in goes another 1/2 a cup.
O3 I need to read up on the subject, but my initial thoughts are to get improved water quality without the water waste that RO seems to produce.
I’m also lead to believe that 03 is very beneficial with regards to fish health, but I am eager to learn ( and be shot down )
Justin, yeah just dig down, then build a secondary wall which will come up just in front of the existing pond wall.
What do you think, ( as I will be after a price )
Viewing the koi at depth, doesn’t really bother me, so long as I can see them at say 7-8 feet and of course when they feed, to check for fish health.
Skimmers, I already have 3000 galls an hour going through my skimmer, food is kept away from skimmer via 2 200mm air stone running of an independent hiblow 50. ( no food down the skimmers then ! )
Hiblow is turned off every night and kept on during the day, as Anne basically keeps the food going in a the graze theory ( like Cliff ) once the food has been eaten, in goes another 1/2 a cup.
O3 I need to read up on the subject, but my initial thoughts are to get improved water quality without the water waste that RO seems to produce.
I’m also lead to believe that 03 is very beneficial with regards to fish health, but I am eager to learn ( and be shot down )
Justin, yeah just dig down, then build a secondary wall which will come up just in front of the existing pond wall.
What do you think, ( as I will be after a price
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Gazza
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Hi Andy,
I think you've just come back and seen to much don't worry you will soon forget about it..............not
I think one of the fist things we have to think about is giving our fish the best water we can and i would personally say top water and filtration is better in a small pond than not bad water in a large pond (if that makes sense)
The O3 stuff does still cost money as you have to change membranes and stuff and some of the good bits of kit seem to be a few ££££££ to buy but and there are also some expensive controllers to keep it all safe. But as said above i am not 100% on them and perhaps someone who uses one could help.(Malcolm Green would be a good port of call).
Some of the RO equipment can be re- piped to make them produce better product water and less waste so it can be done so you don't waste to much water.You do still have to change pre-filters just like a purifier but these are not to expensive and the membranes last a while.I also use all my waste water for all sorts of things from watering the garden (no not in the winter) to flushing out the filters. I take it your on a water meter as i am so it is something to think about.
I think you've just come back and seen to much don't worry you will soon forget about it..............not
I think one of the fist things we have to think about is giving our fish the best water we can and i would personally say top water and filtration is better in a small pond than not bad water in a large pond (if that makes sense)
The O3 stuff does still cost money as you have to change membranes and stuff and some of the good bits of kit seem to be a few ££££££ to buy but and there are also some expensive controllers to keep it all safe. But as said above i am not 100% on them and perhaps someone who uses one could help.(Malcolm Green would be a good port of call).
Some of the RO equipment can be re- piped to make them produce better product water and less waste so it can be done so you don't waste to much water.You do still have to change pre-filters just like a purifier but these are not to expensive and the membranes last a while.I also use all my waste water for all sorts of things from watering the garden (no not in the winter) to flushing out the filters. I take it your on a water meter as i am so it is something to think about.
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Bob Hart
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Go for it Andy
Think Justin might be lost at the bottom though.
Can you get a 'big' digger out in the road outside your garden and dig it mostly from there? A few big scoops and you'll be at 10-feet.
Then again I suppose you'll need a big 'pecker' to get the concrte and rebar out first.
Starting to sound very expensive now though.
Count me in for giving a hand - that means watching!!!!!
Think Justin might be lost at the bottom though.
Can you get a 'big' digger out in the road outside your garden and dig it mostly from there? A few big scoops and you'll be at 10-feet.
Then again I suppose you'll need a big 'pecker' to get the concrte and rebar out first.
Starting to sound very expensive now though.
Count me in for giving a hand - that means watching!!!!!
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jasekoi
hi andy
a very interesting project .
i would not go 10ft deep , but at the end of the day its what you want.
i may have asked this before to you but why the massive turn over . is this better for koi meaning to get the best body shape.
also you have 2 showers , what pumps are you using?
how many watts in total you are expecting to run?
how many ponds have you got , just out of intrest due to my elc bills?
i am looking to improve my pond to get the best out of my koi.
jason
a very interesting project .
i would not go 10ft deep , but at the end of the day its what you want.
i may have asked this before to you but why the massive turn over . is this better for koi meaning to get the best body shape.
also you have 2 showers , what pumps are you using?
how many watts in total you are expecting to run?
how many ponds have you got , just out of intrest due to my elc bills?
i am looking to improve my pond to get the best out of my koi.
jason
Hi Jason
I think your right regarding the depth, having discussed my ideas with others, I am going to aim for a total excavated depth of 9ft, which should give me an actual depth of 8.5 ft.
I will also remove the existing coping stones and replace with a finish brick, this will not be part of the pond calculations, it just give a little more height from current water level.
The pond should then be somewhere around 7000 galls ( not as big as I would have liked but better than nothing )
The reason why I choose to have such high turnover rates, is that I believe ( and if the growth of my fish is anything to go by ) water flow and oxygen to be of the utmost importance.
With only a small footprint for filtration, I had no choice but to incorporate showers, when I was considering extra filtration, in the early days my system comprised of a beadmaster ( rated @ 7.700 galls ) a vortex and a sequence 1/4 plus ( along with the normal stuff i.e HX Boiler UV etc ).
Now it maybe just coincidence, but my fish used to suffer with ulcers etc and whilst we achieved grow, it wasn't anywhere near what others were getting.
So having spoken to people like Mike Snadden, I purchased by first shower some 3 years ago, then another earlier this year.
To get the benefit from showers you need at least 3000 galls an hour, so as soon as you add additional showers you must up your flow rates.
Combine the showers with 2 100lt Hiblow s ( using ****** spindrifters ) the surface area of the pond is never still. This gives protection from the sun and when the fish are high in the water keeps the fish on the move.
As there are no low water return, my fish rest at the bottom end of the pond, when they want to.
The end result are fish the grow without getting to fat ( although I have the odd pig )
Water parameters are always OK as the showers gas off nitrates etc, I also use clay every time I clean the filters etc to restore the minerals etc that bead filters strip
As for the running cost, I must confess to not knowing, but I know there have been several trials that Duncan carried out a year or two back, may be worth have a look at some old threads.
Anyway hope the above is of some use.
Regards
Andy
I think your right regarding the depth, having discussed my ideas with others, I am going to aim for a total excavated depth of 9ft, which should give me an actual depth of 8.5 ft.
I will also remove the existing coping stones and replace with a finish brick, this will not be part of the pond calculations, it just give a little more height from current water level.
The pond should then be somewhere around 7000 galls ( not as big as I would have liked but better than nothing
)The reason why I choose to have such high turnover rates, is that I believe ( and if the growth of my fish is anything to go by ) water flow and oxygen to be of the utmost importance.
With only a small footprint for filtration, I had no choice but to incorporate showers, when I was considering extra filtration, in the early days my system comprised of a beadmaster ( rated @ 7.700 galls ) a vortex and a sequence 1/4 plus ( along with the normal stuff i.e HX Boiler UV etc ).
Now it maybe just coincidence, but my fish used to suffer with ulcers etc and whilst we achieved grow, it wasn't anywhere near what others were getting.
So having spoken to people like Mike Snadden, I purchased by first shower some 3 years ago, then another earlier this year.
To get the benefit from showers you need at least 3000 galls an hour, so as soon as you add additional showers you must up your flow rates.
Combine the showers with 2 100lt Hiblow s ( using ****** spindrifters ) the surface area of the pond is never still. This gives protection from the sun and when the fish are high in the water keeps the fish on the move.
As there are no low water return, my fish rest at the bottom end of the pond, when they want to.
The end result are fish the grow without getting to fat ( although I have the odd pig )
Water parameters are always OK as the showers gas off nitrates etc, I also use clay every time I clean the filters etc to restore the minerals etc that bead filters strip
As for the running cost, I must confess to not knowing, but I know there have been several trials that Duncan carried out a year or two back, may be worth have a look at some old threads.
Anyway hope the above is of some use.
Regards
Andy
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gary richards
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03
hi andy,
what has changed your mind on the 03 since last year.
can recall you where a no no when i was looking in to it.
and it is said that you should be able to reach all around the pond with ease, and after having seen what happened to my net, you know what i mean " jack " i am thinking that you will need some net if going down that deep.
best of luck
gary
what has changed your mind on the 03 since last year.
can recall you where a no no when i was looking in to it.
and it is said that you should be able to reach all around the pond with ease, and after having seen what happened to my net, you know what i mean " jack " i am thinking that you will need some net if going down that deep.
best of luck
gary