On going problems Continued

[DaveB]

I have now had problems with Gill flukes and general health issues for the past 3 years. I have irradicated gill flukes with last treatment using Praz, malchite & formalin. Koi appear to be healthy since this treatment, however I did not have any problems after using Flubenol this time last year at similar temperatures and did not have any issues throughout last winter.
I have this theory that the ongoing problems maybe bacterial related and have have gone to great length to ensure that there is no dirt anywhere in the system. After my last treatment for flukes I had a strong smell of hydrogen sulphide coming from the filter house ( bakki filter). After treating the pond with hydrogen peroxide the ORP readings have fallen from 300mmx to 150 and I have been unable to get it back up to where it was. 240mv at the same p.H. is the best I can do.
I have gone to great effort and expense to try and improve the situation and get to the reason why I keep having recurring problems each spring and summer with gill flukes and or bacteial issues. I have recently change the BHM in my bakki shower which made no difference to the ORP reading. So if there was dirt I would have expected this to rise after I removed it. I have also now fitted a Nexus 300 after my Vortex as I could not guarantee that the filter floors were always clean.
I have just this morning gone for a swim in the pond( long story so won,t go into too much) and checked all the pipework to and from the bottom drain and back to the pond and all is clear. My main reason for doing this, it has always been my belief that the fluctuating p.H. ( see previous posts) might be due to an over active filter.and have tried a number of ways in trying to control this, the cleaning of the bottom drain pipework was the final resort( which was found to be clear)
If I have anymore problems next year I am seriously considering packing it all in.Any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated. Best regards Dave

[davec]

Why have you got a vortex before your nexus mate i personally would remove that and go straight from bottom drain to nexus i think your worrying a bit too much about waste removal if youve got the correct size pump on your bottom drain line you shouldnt get alot of waste settling in the pipe feeding the filters

[Geoff9]

Hi Dave
Two thing I have noticed over the years with my Nexus 300, I always back flush when I clean every day in the Summer and every other day in the Winter, the other thing when I clean the Nexus, I use a length of plastic to remove the K1 from each side on the inlet in the bio as I think it might get clogged and cause problems,

What size air pump do you use, I have an old Airtech 120lts(now called a 150lts)any thing less isn't good enough to move the K1,

Also the other Dave as a point no need for a vortex before a nexus300.

Regards Geoff

[DaveB]

Why have you got a vortex before your nexus mate i personally would remove that and go straight from bottom drain to nexus i think your worrying a bit too much about waste removal if youve got the correct size pump on your bottom drain line you shouldnt get alot of waste settling in the pipe feeding the filters

Dave thanks for your input.I have seen this working on a couple of systems and it works a treat.It takes all the large pieces of crap out before it hits the Nexus and can be dumped twice daily if needed. Also vey handy if you go on holliday and just get the naibour to quickly open a valve and the waste is gone. I don,t think the issue is to do with the nexus as I have only fitted a few weeks ago.I hope you are right regarding me worrying too much about waste removal and I have a 16000 ltrs per minuite going through the bottom drain although it will be a lot less than this due to bends etc. The bottom drain project turned out to be a waste of time and was for piece of mind if anything. Best regards Dave.

[DaveB]

Geoff . thanks for your info on the nexus and are all good tips on how to operate it. The problems I have been having are not with the Nexus as I only fitted it a few weeks ago. ( sorry if I have not been clear) I fiited the nexus in the hope that it will resolve my problems as my old system was not really designed to hold K1 and I had issues with dirt in the biological area.
I am currently running my Nexus 300 with 2x 90 ltr air pumps and a 40ltr with air stones in the feet and 300 ltrs oof mature K1 ( from my old system) I too backflush each time I clean( pull the centre tube out whilst empty .I am not sure what you mean regarding the last bit. ( I use a length of plastic to clear the inlet in the bio section). I thought that is why we back flushed , to clear this area. I would be gratefull if you would explain. Sorry if I am being a thicky.Best regards Dave

[Duncan]

Dave

just so we are clear can you list your fish losses and a timeline associated with this please?

also can you give us a run down of your system as this has been going to and throw for so long now we have lost track of pond volume fish load total filtration etc?

dunc

[Dave Collins]

Hi Dave,

Please do as Duncan has said and we will all pull together and get to the bottom of this. We all like a good challenge

[DaveB]

Hi guys here is a list of system mechanics etc.
Pond vol 5400 gallons 17 years old this year. I ran the pond for 14 years without too much trouble but koi got bigger but did loose one or two over the same period.
Pond currently has 13 koi which range in size from 12" bought this year to several koi are 65 cm + and one or two at 70 to 80 cm . I have had some of these koi for 20 years.
I am have recurring problems with gill flukes but only ever one or two koi effected, and only one or two picked up on the slide, also other issues with the odd koi sulking, a dose of M& F always does the trick, but sick or treating the pond for flukes ie 2 or 3 times each year. I have lost 4 koi over a 3 years and just seems to be 1 each year perhaps 2 at the very most.I always seem to catch the problem in time.
I have been on the line of, there has to be a route cause why I am have recurring problems and have thought down the lines of p.H fluctuation which I managed to get down to 0.3 at best in any 24 hours. Previously it was 0.7 before I fitted some shade sails. So hopefully I have got that in check. The other route I have taken is whether or not I have had issue with debre in the filters. as the Pond floor is always spotless.
Just wondering if there is something I have overlooked as parameters are always spot on. The only one which is a bit adrift is ORP at 250. Should be higher for a p.H. of 7.1 to 7.3. Tds of tap is 70 ppm and pond is 94. No ammonia, zero nitrite & nitrate 10mg/ltr.
I am not sure if there is any more I can do. but hoping that I mjght have mist something . Best regards Dave




Filtration Bakki shower fitted last year with BHM turnover 2 x 20000 ltr pumps from mid water & skimmer 2" pipework
Nexus 300 only fitted 1 month ago from bottom drain. return to pond via heat exchanger and UV 11/2" pipework.
No air going into pond but oxygen levels always read saturation.I do run a 45ltr ait pump to spindrifter next to bottom drain when ever I treat the pond.

[Dave Collins]

Hi Dave,

I do like a challenge but this one is a bit of a monster……..

Proceeding by a process of elimination, I’d say that:-
You’re not overstocked, 13 Koi in your volume is good
I don’t think it’s down to the pH fluctuations, the sun shade has reduced this proving that the principle cause was photosynthesis.
Your pond is especially clean, both mechanically and bio as proved by the tds of the pond relative to tap tds. I’d ignore the ORP readings.

So what are we left with?
There might be a lot of bacteria enjoying life in your pond. I’d tend to treat the water with whatever product you like. I like to treat at this time of year, I’ve just started dropping the high feed rate that I use from September to October for growth and the pond is slowly cooling down. In a week or two I will treat with Virasure to reduce bacteria and then repeat again at the end of February.

As Duncan says, your flukes seem to be a bit resistant to treatment. They are nearly always present but a healthy Koi with a good mucus can normally support one or two. Maybe a lower level of bacteria will give the Koi a fighting chance.

Anyway that’s my input, let’s see what Duncan thinks about it.

Ps Don't give up Koi keeping mate, once it's sorted you can sit by your pond with a glass and enjoy

[DaveB]

Dave, Once again thanks for your input.Dave I think we discussed this in a previous thread and I tried the use of Virkon aquatic ( similar product)last winter and throughout the spring ( double the weekly dose). Unfortunately to no avail, the gill flukes came back once temperature warmed up. What really confuses me is the Gill flukes are really hard to find and are by no means an infestation and are only on one or two koi and not always the same koi. On occation the koi also exibit classic signs of costia but have not found any as yet. Interesting enough when I treated in the past with 3 doses of CT. This has also improved the behavour of the koi. Between bouts of health issues the koi have looked generally well, especially since I removed all the oystershell etc which was only trapping dirt.
Of all the attemps to stablize the p.H. the shade sails have had the most effect, even though I have had zero blanketweed and good clear water, The increased aration due to adding the bakki shower and adding extra airation to the pond, did raise the p.H but did little regards the swing. I am currently working with a fairly low k.H. ( thinking outside the box) and just maintain the k.H. /p.H. by adding small amounts of bicarb during the evening. The problems always seem to coincide when the p.H. starts swinging above 0.4. So that was my original train of thought. see previous posts about this.Just for the record my problems also started when I removed a bridge and a overhanging tree agoa few years whiich provided over 50% shade. I currently have over this with shade sails. As soon as I put the covers on the p.H has totally flatlined at a rock steady 7.2 Not sure if I have been looking in the right direction but other than this and possibly dirt in the system somewhere I am at a loss. I have gone through the whole system looking for debris, even to the extent of changing my filltration system completely..best REgards Dave
Best regards Dave

[Duncan]

Dave prior to fitting the nexus was the bakki shower you only filtration ?

im going to dismiss the pH fluctuation even .5 ( which you don't have) is nothing and quite normal and with your soft water to be expected so let forget this

I have a suspicion whats happened with the flukes but will leave that for now
dunc

[Dave Collins]

Dave, do you have anywhere around your pond where birds can bath? Or frogs maybe. They are all carriers of parasites etc.

Looks like Duncan might have a solution for your fluke problem.

[DaveB]

Dave prior to fitting the nexus was the bakki shower you only filtration ?

im going to dismiss the pH fluctuation even .5 ( which you don't have) is nothing and quite normal and with your soft water to be expected so let forget this

I have a suspicion whats happened with the flukes but will leave that for now
dunc

Duncan Sorry if I have not been clear. Prior to fitting the Nexus 300. I had 3 square vortexes after the round vortex.with homemade easy screen for mechanical filtration. I coverted the Jap matting to moving K1, This was a big improvement as the jap matting was always clogged up with crap, even with an answer in the vortex. Unfortunately the square vortexes are not designed for moving K1 although I have heard several people profess it can be done. All my filters are under decking and even when filters are covered it was impossible to keep all the crap out or wood preserve leaching in to the filters. No matter how much I flushed the bottom of these square vortexes, there was allways some sediment when cleaned and what a hassle it was removing the K1 and cleaning them.Sometimes I wonder if I was cleaning them too much. I have eventually bit the bullet and fitted the Nexus 300, in the hope of resolving the above issues.
I have always had a shower of some sort and the year before last I decided to remove a bubblebead filter which was on the skimmerline feeding the shower.I did this as I was having a few problems with finrot when treating koi.This run for about a year like this and then decided to upgrade the shower to BHM and add a extra tier and double the flow rate over the shower.
I know it seems like I have been doing a lot of changes and perhaps this has not helped. Hopefully now I have a better system and maybe It just need a season without changes. This might just be wishfull thinking, but hope you might spot something I have missed. I have been of the belief that the recurring problems with flukes is due to something else going on which is stressing the koi.This year has been a general improvement in way I haven,t had any issues with finrot and any wounds or knocks have healed up without too much trouble
Duncan I hope this helps in explaining whats going on.
As you know Duncan I have recently dosed the pond twice with Praz+Malch+ formalin and as yet I have had no problems and the koi are all looking well. Best regards Dave

[DaveB]

Dave, do you have anywhere around your pond where birds can bath? Or frogs maybe. They are all carriers of parasites etc.

Looks like Duncan might have a solution for your fluke problem.

No not really. The pond is below ground level and therfore is at least 6" to 18" vertical fall all the way around the pond. I do have a waterfall which returns from the Bakki house but there is a huge amount of water going over it. I do on occation find the odd frog in the skimmer basket. But then again I have always had this ever since I build the pond.and had few problems until 3 years ago. I have a large waterfall which is natural but is not in anyway connected to the pond. So I do not believe either of these would make a difference irrespective of surrounding wildlife . I still believe I should not need to treat every couple of months throughout the summer.Best Regards Dave

[Duncan]

so Dave do you still have the vortices in service?

I don't like bakki showers I think they are an expensive waste of money and so is the magical mystic media that goes in them

duncc