Strange Health Situation

[bone3333]

I had noticed over the last few weeks that some of my koi were jumping/breaching the water surface. I thought it was odd but wasn't too concerned as I examined them and they seemed fine. Yesterday I found that about half of my Koi looked stressed (really red white skin with vains showing, fins really red). Some were on the bottom with clamped fins. some were hanging higher with clamped fins (head up). I have had this pond for five years and never has trouble with this behavior. So I started testing the water.

Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5
PH 8.2
KH 179
Water Temp 68 degrees.

I do 10 percent weekly water changes. I use ST for the chlorine as my city doesn't use chloramine. Wondering if something has changed, I called the waterworks and found no adjustments had been made to the treatment of the tap water.

Next Step: I scraped and scoped 3 Koi to get an idea of parasite activity. I found nothing on them. I examined the gills and they all looked undamaged and the right color. Slime coat seems to be normal. I did notice that the black on a few of the Koi had a slight whitish film on them.

Next step: I decided to do a thirty percent water change thinking something may have gotten into the water (Though I can't think of anything that could have.)

I had added two Chagoi to my pond last week from quaratine but the Koi in the main pond had been acting strangely prior to adding them. They were in quaratine with other Koi and my canary from the main pond for about a year before I added them. There were zero health problems with the fish in quaratine during that time. I scraped and scoped the two Chagoi before adding them and found nothing.

This morning I found most of the Koi hanging and on the bottom with clamped fins. red as ever. I put four of them in a salt bath to monitor their activity today and see if it changes their behavior. I decided to overnight some proform C and start treatments tommorow just in case I am missing something. I know shotgun treatments are not advised but I am at a complete loss.

If anyone has any ideas please advise. I have ran through every kind of check and test I can think of.

Thanks,
Dan

[bone3333]

Update this evening:
Some of them are now flashing off the bottom. Most are just hanging with fins clamped. The whites are really really red now. A couple look like they are barely hanging on (listing).


I'll start the Proform C treatments when it gets here. I hope it is a parasite problem as at least I can treat for them. I'll need about 52 ounces per treatment (3). I have 32 ounces of a product called Terminate from Aquameds. It is pretty much the same formula and treatment regime as proform C. I was thinking about treating with this tonight but it would not be a full dose so I have decided to wait until tomorrow.

It almost seems like something is burning them like chlorine would do. I was wondering if my ST(crystal form) for treating the chlorine has expired but I have heard that the crystal form may never expire. Doesn't make sense anyway because I do weekly 25 percent water changes in my quarantine with the same ST with no problems.

Hits you hard. Most of these guts I have had for up to five years now and some are pushing thirty inches. My Koi had been doing great for a long time. This just doesn't make any sense. If it's not a parasite problem (even though scrape and scope I didn't see any) I think I am in real trouble.

[Gazza]

Hi,

I am not sure on the treatments you have said but what exactly are they for and i would hold off before adding anything until you are sure of the reason the fish are this way.

I would do another scrape fist to try to find if it is indeed a parasite problem and then if you do find a parasite you can treat accordingly and hopefully nail the little critters.

Do you use a purifier before the water goes in the pond as if not it may be an idea to get one and also see if this helps just in case there is something in your water

[bone3333]

Sorry, I am from the US and probably use different terms.
Some clarification:
Sodium thiosulflate Crystals (ST) are for neutralizing the chlorine in the tap water.
ProForm C is malachite green and formalin mix. It is a broad spectrum diseasse treatment that will kill many parasites.
I have found bugs on my microscope in the past on new Koi in my quarantine tank and treated succesfully. But, I was wondering if it may be something like costia that are real small and hard to see and I am missing them. I can scrape and scope again.
I don't use a perifier. The neutralization of chlorine is all I have ever needed with my water source.
I started the malachite green and formalin treatment a couple hours ago.

[Geoff9]

Hi
I know there are no symptoms but have you got enough air in the pond as I can't see any mention of it in your post,in England we are having some really nice weather and a few ponds are being caught out with a lack of oxygeon.

Regards Geoff

[bone3333]

I don't have an oxygen test on hand. I have two bottom drains with air domes on top. I use an Airtech 80 to run them. Shower filter adds oxygen. I haven't had trouble with oxygen prior even when pond temps hit 80 degrees.
I did get a chlorine test and it read 0. So that rules chlorine out.

Thanks,
Dan

[ageinghippy]

Hi Dan

Are you sure your test kits are ok and not out of date, because to me, your numbers just dont sound right. If it were me, I think I would try testing again with different test kits, or get another koi keeper pay a call to do the tests with their kits.

Chris (another one)

[bone3333]

My test kits are all new. I get new ones every early spring. I check to make sure they are not expired. I also did a check with the kits from last season which still haven't expired and I get the same results. I also took a sample of my water down to a local pet store and they checked with the same results.

Update: Still not much change. I am getting ready to do another round of malachite green and formalin treatment. I did try feeding them a little bit to see what they would do. All but 5 of them ate. So far I have done two thirty percent water changes as the treatments call for. I am thinking if something got into my pond the water changes would help.

[Gazza]

Hi Dan,

The only problem now is you need to finish off the treatment correctly before you can do anything else and if the treatment is not the correct one you will have to start again and if you do think you could of missed Costia then at least you are doing the correct treatment of MG&F.

MG&F that we use is temperature dependent so it depends on warm the water is depends on which days you treat so for example:

13c treat on days 1,7 & 13 if its 18c then you treat on days 1,6 & 11.

Good luck and hope it all works out OK

[kimr]

Hi

I don't know if this may help but do have a close neighbours to the pond, if yes, they could be spraying something that is being carried by a breeze which is getting into the water, also is your pond at ground level and maybe you have used a something.

On what you are discribing it does sound very much like parasites but if your still do not find any on the slide then you either managed to clear them with the treatement, you will only know this if they start to improve after the treatment. Fingers crossed that you find the problem

[bone3333]

Hi Gazza, with the product of MG&F I use, I can actually do as low as 8 to 10 hours between treatments. At least 25 percent water changes in between. It takes quite awhile for me to drain and refill 25% of a 15,000 gal pond. They are in the second treatment right now. Not much change today. Maybe a little less red but it is hard to tell through the blueish water. Some are slowly swimming around. Some are swimmimg with one fin clamped. Some are sulking and not moving with both fins clamped. Still a few of them flashing occasionally.

Thanks,
Dan

[bone3333]

Kim, I do have semi-close neighbors. I have a six foot fence around my property. I think they would have to used an awful lot of some sort of chemical in order to enter my pond and do this to the Koi but it could happen. I can go around and ask if any of them have used anything. My pond is raised about 18 inches off of the ground. I haven't used any chemicals in my yard.

Thanks,
Dan

[Geoff9]

Hi Dan
I wonder if you have a copy of Ducans book on health treatments?,Gazza is telling you the correct protocol for using MG&F(whatever the brand is called)so if your not using it in the right way you are putting your koi in danger because it doesn't work with some parasites unless you follow the advice given,hope you understand we are all trying our best to help.

Regards Geoff

[bone3333]

Hi Geoff, Yes I have a copy of Duncan's book. Like a Koi health bible It has helped me greatly over the years. Both MG&F products I have (Proform C and Terminate, I am sure only sold in the US) State on the bottle to repeat every 8 to 12 hours. I wonder if they are a different maybe less heavy duty product. I just put the last dose in prior to this post. I do hope I haven't put them in too much danger. I do believe Duncan's writings and what you and Gazza are telling me and are trying your best to help. To tell you the truth, I posted here because of Duncan's book and the expertise I imagined I would find. I thank you guys for trying your best to help me. I think I will investigate a little bit and see what percent of chemicals these products I used have in them and compare with Duncan's notes on dosing in the book so i can get an idea what exactly I have done. I should have done this from the start. If I need to use a different protocal, I imagine I should wait awhile and let the treatments I have done dissipate. Let the Koi recover as I don't want to push them over the edge.

Thanks,
Dan

[Gazza]

Hi Dan,

Yes i also wonder what the types of chemicals are used in your mix as some sell "stuff" which they say is a lets say "multi parasite" treatment and i have yet to see one that actually does work as many are pre mixed and so weak that they just cant do the job required.

It will be interesting to see what your findings are on this and hope you find out as this may help in the future.

Glad to hear some of the fish are getting better and touch wood this is a good sign and will continue.