Health advice for the garden pond keeper?

[Manky Sanke]

I've just met my Daughter's new boyfriend. Keen to impress his prospective new father in law(?) he started talking about koi. It transpired that he didn't keep koi but his father did and they had had large white mucus patches for several weeks and a couple had died - did I know what should he do?

His father lived too far away for me to visit so I began with as basic a description as possible of the procedure for testing the water, diagnosis and then treatment but he clearly was just looking for "just bung this in and it will fix the problem" and changed the subject.

So I got to thinking. There are quite a few people like that. Unable to understand how to diagnose and treat koi properly, they are allowing their fish to die from problems that are relatively easy to cure. As we, ourselves, struggle up the ladder of knowledge, what about those on the first rung without the ambition to go much higher? Should we just shrug our shoulders and allow them to carry on killing koi or should we try to educate to some small degree? Bearing in mind the limited capacity to understand koi health and pond husbandry that some will have (no disrespect intended), is there something we could hand out as very basic koi health advice to those with a koi health problem in their garden pond?

A few years ago, Duncan's health course got me thinking. The first question on assignment 1:

Q1, which of all the test kits available do you consider to be THE most essential one and why? (yes I know they are all important) but which one could you not do without given a choice?

What a question! Everyone knows that we should all get up at the crack of dawn every morning and conduct a full spectrographic analysis of our water chemistry but what if we could only test one parameter, which should it be and why? I'll bet that one got a few thinking caps on.

In a similar vein, if we were to advise the basic garden pond keeper with a health problem what action to take, what should that be? Bearing in mind they won't join a koi club and won't get someone in to diagnose properly, what simple course of action has the highest probability of success? Or isn't there anything that can be done in these situations?

[Geoff9]

Hi Syd
I do the KH test every week and keep it at 4,as a few years back I had a test on my water and was told no KH,it was something I never did a test for and understand the good bugs really need it,all the other tests PH,Ammonia and Nitrite seem stable,

I use the API test kit.

Regards Geoff

[Gazza]

Hi Guys,

Easy answer for me and thats KH as this is the buffer that keeps the PH nice and stable

[Graham.]

Afternoon chaps,

I too would say KH but only because I once learnt the hard way of allowing the kh to drop down to a point where I nearly had a ph crash. BUT ! I would also like to emphasize that I would not suggest just this to new hobbyists as I feel this would come over as a lazy attitude to water house keeping.

I think Syd and Dunc has shown us over the years how much there is to the wet stuff, and the old cliche of we keep water and not koi has to be drummed into hobbyists from an early start.

If you have a test kit with a variety of tests, then I would really say use them all, as with experience you will learn to understand your water and get to the point where your koi will tell you when something is not right.

Graham

[Koi Man Dave]

I agree on this after learning the hard way had a PH crash went down to 5.5 following a heavy rain spell then worked like crazy doing a 70 percent water change to push it back up to 7.0.

Having said this what method do you guys utilise to stabalize the pond.
I recall reading a book by Dr. Erik Johnson who had what he called a PH pill that consisted of Plaster of Paris must be pure without any other substances and he explains how he makes a pill as such that is put into the filters. originally for tanks however the link shows for ponds as well now.

Link is here if i wasnt supposed to have posted this would the admin guys please let me know.
http://www.koivet.com/a_phpill.html

[kayoss]

One of the old Chiltern members used to run his pond on nothing but rain water!

If I remember correctly, the first chamber of his filter system also acted as the rainwater collection chamber, and the second chamber was filled with oyster/clam/cockle shells to provide some calcium for the pond. Apparently, if the pH dropped slightly, the extra acidity dissolved more of the shells to increase the buffering and as the pH rose, less of the shells dissolved. End result was very stable pH - but I can't remember what the reading was!

Cheers

Bob

[Koi Man Dave]

Hi Bob

I know of someone in Lincolnshire my brothers father in law to be exact does the same method i was shocked but as he said the PH of his tap water comes out at 5.5 so it made more sense to utilise rain water and buffer using oyser shells and his pond sits very stable.

[Manky Sanke]

Sorry guys,

The example I used about Duncan's pH question threw you all off track.

But on the pH question; pH tests are the most important because a seriously wrong pH will have an immediate life threatening effect and most other parameters (especially ammonia) are in some way dependant on pH anyway. Since I refer to pH and KH as two parts of the same parameter, I reckon that KH comes a very close second because although all sensible KH levels don't directly affect koi (unless they vary quickly), KH is the key to controlling pH.

Anyway, my question was in my last paragraph. The situation I described and the question I had in mind was: When we hear of a low end koi pond or garden pond with a health problem, but the owner doesn't know how to diagnose the problem and wouldn't consider joining a koi club or some other means of getting someone to do a proper diagnosis, what can we do? Do we just have to turn our backs and allow the fish in the pond to die, (along with all the replacements from the Garden Centre). Or is there a simple course of action and general treatment that would have the best chance of helping someone who will otherwise either just buy one treatment after another or maybe not even bother.

It goes without saying that we should never give out this advice in any but the most extreme cases where we know nothing else will be tried and this would be the only chance the fish would have for survival. But the story about my future son-in-law's dad is just one example of some of the stories I hear.

[Koi Man Dave]

I would say remove fish from pond drain pond down disinfect everything, fill back up with new water and de chlorinate restart filters then get them to PP dip the fissh then put them back in the pond.
If they didn't have any PP then a good old fashioned salt dip.
I appreciate such large water replacements are not good by any means but generally most health issues tend to be water or parasite related so why not get them to clean everything down.
I would then advise to feed once every other day to give the filters a chance to mature.

I used to carry out 80 percent water changes daily when I had Discus yes with RO water I may add but it kept them healthy different breed so yes it's a different ball game.

[Manky Sanke]

That's not a bad idea Dave,

Well actually it's a terrible idea (if you know what I mean) but the situations I'm thinking of are very much a case of choosing the lesser of two or more evils. A complete drain and clean then starting again with new water would be something that you could easily explain to a complete novice who lacks the understanding or ambition to learn how to approach health problems properly and who has a garden pond that was probably full of decaying leaves anyway.

Potassium permanganate was the treatment I had in mind but the kind of people who would be in this situation in the first place would probably have no idea of their pond volume. I was initially thinking along the lines of a pond treatment but I thought that suggesting treating an unknown volume of water with PP would be too risky. A PP dip (ready mixed proprietry liquid or a powder pre-measured by a dealer) before returning them to new water seems much safer.

I get all sorts of questions through my website. I did pretty good on Duncan's course and I've done a huge amount of reading since then, but people who gain a bit of knowledge then pretend to be experts without having had any practical experience really annoy me so I never pretend to be a health expert. Water is my home turf, I'll talk about that all day so while I don't mind giving fairly comprehensive but basic health advice I don't get too involved with health problems. I've sent quite a few people over here where the real health experts live!

Having said that, I remember some very odd questions. One said that his fish were gasping at the surface so he'd put a load of salt in the water, what should he do now? Another literally just said "Hi, all my fish are dying. Regards _____". That's it, nothing more. My approach has always been; test the water, observe behaviour before even touching the fish, then examine and scrape if necessary to identify a parasite, then diagnose and treat accordingly but many don't come back after I ask them what their water parameters are.

One woman saw me reading Ed Branson's book on fish welfare and physiology and asked if that meant I had a fish health problem like her husband's pond was always having. I explained that I was just reading and asked her about the water quality in his pond. She said “No! I’m sure there’s nothing wrong with the water - it’s not green, it’s crystal clear.”

These are the people that need a very very basic strategy that has the best chance of success in a situation that is beyond their level of understanding.

Any other ideas?

[Al]

Hi Syd,

Difficult question to ask when we know the correct route us Koi keepers should take, but....
I would sugest maybe a 50% water change along with a clean out of any debris in the system and then a dose of CT, this could be repeated if signs of improvement are shown. The PP dip is fine until they forget how long the Koi/fish have been in the dip. Maybe change the PP dip to a salt dip.

[Koi Man Dave]

Hi Syd my initial thoughts were PP I wrote it out and deleted and started again, as you say majority of novices would either overdose or wouldn't have a clue.
Then I went back to what I know best this being back to my discus days hence the reason why I said a total water change. And a PP or salt dip.
It's amazing the things you here I have from a shop of a guy that walked down the road and into the shop with one of his koi under his arm asking the owner what he should do because the fish had an issue.

I also know of another guy his pump packed up the water quality dropped fast as you can imagine and when he spoke to me I asked why he didn't get another pump he replied he had to wait until the end of the month to get paid, I ended up letting him use my spare one.

I have always thought what if this happens and try and have a spare or two at hand just in case something happens but as you know the average beginner does not think ahead they think for the moment and generally panic.
A friend of mine asked why are you always reading up and buying things that you don't need to look at this being treatments for this and that etc. I replied I would rather be proactive and ready to respond to most situations that wait until the horse has bolted.
And guess what when he had a problem that he noticed one early evening and was calling me to see if I could help, fortunately he has started to stock up on a few things as well now.

I must admit you got me thinking last night whilst I was writing and deleting and rewriting.

Hope you all have a good weekend.

[kimr]

Hi Syd

Having dealt with a couple of Garden Pond sittuations over the last 5 years, with the people loving their fish but not wanting to learn really how to care for them and then sent nearly dead fish round to me to cure, my advise has been to get the dip stick test strip which is a single test carried out in seconds and gives a general overal reaction to how the pond is behaving, not perfect but better than nothing. The treatment I always suggested to have at hand was MG&F, as all the problems I dealt with were parasite and MG&F will take care of most parasites.

The reason I enjoy my Koi keeping is being able to learn from people on this forum, and I have come to realise there are a lot of people who have ponds whcih just dont want to know how to really care for fish that live in it, they dig a hole put something in it to hold water add a pump filter and fish and think thats it, water change or top ups are done by the rain or just turning the hose on (no dechlorinator added) feed sometimes when they remember and thats it, if the fish die they go and buy some more, some years they lose more fish then others. So what do we do in this sittuation, give them the easiest option you can and hope they listen. What annoyed me was when they would send round a fish that they lifted out of pond with hand saying it hadnt been well for while and can I make it better, when the same thing had happened a few months before. I will help anyone and it generally cost me a lot of money, and I have saved quite a few fish over the years, but when you are saying the same thing to the same people again and again it gets a bit annoying to say the least.
But all we can do in this sittuation is our best, if they want to learn they will if they dont then we cant do a lot just hope we can help the next time

[Brek]

I have offended many a person on a few other sites with sometime some very to the point comments, we all have to learn, but that is the key 'to learn', anyone that asks for help and then fails to act on it is not learning and is inflicting cruelty and neglect on an animal that cannot get out of the situation. I have spent many many hour reading sited like this and others and aside from a dodgy scale from a unknown source have had no health issue with my fish what so ever. If I had a penny for every time the mrs said 'if you looked after the house as much or paid as much attention to me' I'd have my 15,000 gallon pond by know.