This Section Is For Advanced Hobbyists Discussing new original cutting edge Experimental and Trial Treatments and Surgical Techniques, here we take koi health and pond keeping to the next level
Got home tonight to find my Sakuma Kohaku belly up in the Q/T tank.
It had been a bit off colour sitting on the bottom of the pond and then put in Q/T for the last 2 days. Got home and this is what I found
Could not believe the amount of damage to the fish, not excess swelling but blood from the anal vent and damage to the capillaries in the tail and penduncle.
Looked at the gills and no sign of necrosis, lossof colour due to time from death I imagine.
Decided it was time to attempt an autopsy based on Duncans post as I really thought I needed to get something positive from such a bad break, so opened her up. As I cut into the body cavity there was agushing sound and a huge amount of fluid gushed out, must have been between 1/4 to 1/2 litre of fluid. Once into the body cavity I began to think I knew the problem from looking at the organs on view.
Looked at the swim bladder and noticed the marked difference in colour and the flabby texture of the lower chamber As I removed the other organs from around the swim bladder I noticed what looked like a hole, on further investigation this was looking more like some kind of absess which had burst which would explain the body cavity filling with fluid. Opened the swim bladder and noticed what appeared to be a foreign body in it which can be seen as the green piece in the opened flap. removed the swim bladder completely to have a good look at the difference on the two parts.
Am I right in my conclusions as to cause of death or am I miles off. Also is there any way of curing something like this or is it a ticking timebomb.
Hi Stu, sorry you lost this one but a great autopsy mate and brilliant photos most interesting and I look forward to hear how right Duncan feels you got it.
Hi Stuart sorry you lost this Koi,I have no idea if your right or wrong and will eagerly await Duncan's thoughts looking at the tail possibly septicemia ???
Shame to lose such a nice koi but, as you say, at least you've got something positive from the experience.
Some great photos there and thanks for sharing them with us. It will be interesting to hear Duncan's comments, but you've clearly identified something very wrong with the koi in the swim bladder.
Was this your first attempt or have you done it before? Is it very difficult or one of those things that looks harder to do than it really is? Looks to be a very neat and tidy job - well done mate!
Sad to hear about your loss mate, but thanks for taking the time to post the great quality autopsy pictures. I can't wait to hear what Dunc's thoughts are about what you have found.
Sorry at your loss mate and it does look a mess and the strange how i am wondering if this has been caused by a bacterial infection somehow and of cause its then got a real hold on the fish and not much of a chance of coming back from that.
fantastic post, great pics and fair play to you having a go at autopsy, not a lot of people would even think of doing it but we would all like to know why our beloved koi sometimes die apparently for no reason.sorry for your loss and hopefully you'll get to the bottom of it , good luck.
sorry for the delay mate busy, busy , busy at this time
right excellent post mortem you did really well and its neat and very tidy so you did good and i cant praise you enough
obviously a mature male ( hope it was not sold as female) and you noted again very accuratly that the gills were pale because it had been dead a while good ob's
one thing i noticed was the head/cranial kidney at the front was very large they are not usually this big, so this indicates the kidney had been working its roe out for quite some time same for the other kidney too but less so in this case
so i reckon this fish died of secondary sepsis this was indicated by the inflamation all over the rear of the fish from the outside ( white ground) and all the fluid that came out when you opened her up. the primary cause of this "no surprise" a necrotic posterier gas bladder that caused further internal infection (sepsis)
the liver is very discoloured but this has to be ruled out as it would have undoubtedly been effected by the fluid built up by the internal infection
what caused the necrosis of the bladder is another matter and i guess we can only guess at it , had it been an abscess i would expect to se or find a lump or hard empty shell my guess is it was just a bacterial infection what you shoulod have doen is sent a sample off for Analysys easy done perhaps i can cover that real soon for this section
but you did great got a result which is always a bonus and it did not end up looking like an RTA
Duncan wrote: what you shoulod have doen is sent a sample off for Analysys easy done perhaps i can cover that real soon for this section
Stu,
First up - sorry about the koi.
Dunc,
I would be interested in this as we all to often hear about getting cultures done before using AB's so we use the correct ones etc. Now add in this and if it is easy enough then we can be more targeted with things and places to send stuff / how to do it would be good.
Thanks for all the sympathy guys and thanks for the interest. This was my first go at autopsy and I made a few silly errors like not using bone cutters to cut through the ribs and using a scalpel rather than fingers to separate some of the organs. Overall it was a good experience although for some people the smell (especially when cutting into the body cavity and the fluid releasing) might be a little offputting. Certainly not for the squeemish but at least I can learn from the experience and take the hobby forewards. Duncan you said what caused the necrosis of the bladder is another matter and i guess we can only guess at it , had it been an abscess i would expect to se or find a lump or hard empty shell my guess is it was just a bacterial infection what you shoulod have doen is sent a sample off for Analysys easy done perhaps i can cover that real soon for this section
In the photo below I cut a flap out of the swil bladder and found a large green lump which was lying close if not alongside the rupture in the organ. Could this be cause or effect and how could it get there.
Sorry for all the questions Duncan but I really want to learn as much as possible from this and turn something negative into more knowledge.
I'm not saying it was not an abscess but think about this for a while what is an abscess? yup its bacterial infection in nature anyway. an abscess is the type of infection that does not form a pocket or shell out of nothing! this is a type infection that occupies a tight pocket then blows it apart as it's colony expands as in a tooth cavity for example as it expands it forms this tough shell. peter wil probably be able to expand on this better than I
now if you look at the bladder what your describing is away from the hole
the nub of it is, it could be an abscess it may not be, but its at least a bacterial infection of some kind that effected the gas bladder that was the primary root cause. I still think however it was the secondary sepsis that caused this fishes death. but that does not change anything and it wont make the difference in the future should a similar thing happen
this is one of those instances/cases where knowing the root cause will not save future fish dying from the same thing, simply because you wont know till you open them up, but that said its nice to be able to do it and make a discovery and with pets or at least fish this is about as good as a autopsy gets for the amateur
again well done this make the effort that went into making that article worth while and shows that it can be done if presented properly
As I removed the other organs from around the swim bladder I noticed what looked like a hole, on further investigation this was looking more like some kind of absess which had burst which would explain the body cavity filling with fluid. Opened the swim bladder and noticed what appeared to be a foreign body in it which can be seen as the green piece in the opened flap. removed the swim bladder completely to have a good look at the difference on the two parts.
Great pictures
