From Scratch 2nd Time Around

[Limey]

Hi!

Already posted in chit chat, so will just briefly say I used to keep Koi 8-10 years ago and now returning to it [woo hoo], so starting from scratch.

I will gladly accept any criticism, advice, pointers whatever... just don't be too brutal please .

I have been reading up on this forum and elsewhere and see that not surprisingly quite a few things have changed... well not exactly, there always was the new special filter around that was a breakthrough .

Ok, thought it may be easier if I just say what I intend right now and then you can put me right .

I can't give dimensions right now, that is still in negotiation.... will post in next few days hopefully.

Budget... limited, not in the financial position I was first time around... but who is! Support... a brother in law who is a general builder and a son in law who also does building work [so he says ]... and a ^ foot 2 son with muscles.

My plan is to have a QT/Growing on facility and, of course, a Pond.

Going to do this backwards...

Pond Schedule... Expect to break ground next Feb... March if weather bad, no later they will have to put up with bad weather . Difficult to say how long it will take until I have fairly clear plans to show others for their input and time commitment.

Pond General details... Oval shape. Will be liner, bottom drain gravity feed into box chamber filter. Filter maybe a commercial or purpose built - thats all down to what may come up, and in any case can't really decide on what I will need size wise as Pond dimensions are in negotiation with her who must be obeyed right now . A skimmer seperate feed into same place where QT tank will be. Initially will have UV available there and at some point heating will be added. No plans to add any extra filtration on the skimmer due to space, but would like to have that option for extra or to 'plug in' to the QT filtration when combining doesn't compromise anything and not something as a permenent idea just an extra option really.

[Yorkie]

Hi Limey,

Welcome back to the hobby!!

Oval shape. Will be liner, bottom drain gravity feed .

Could you elabirate a touch on that a bit mate, i take it's goner be part raised above ground & some in the ground?

Are you using all blockwork or part block work?

Many question's but 1 step at a time

[Bob Hart]

One bit of advise I'd give to people building a pond, is to forget the old rule of turn the pond over once every 2-hours. These days it's once an hour or better than that. This gives a far better water quality and certainly aids growth of the Koi. So whatever you do, ensure you have enough filtration and pumping capability designed into your pond.

[Limey]

QT/Growing on Facility... Have to do some final measuring for this. I am pretty lucky that I have a small Brick Building attached to the house... strange shape inside but has power lighting sockests etc. The electrics should work well for main pond as well.

So... size of qt will be max I can fit in and will post dimensions at week end or earlier if I can. Filtration... well, this has changed since I have been trying to catch up, and especially here... I like the idea of the shower.. which to me is like a fast trickle tower . Anyway..... My intial thoughts are to have a settlement chamber, probably vortex gravity fed from the QT tank ----> pump [dry] -----> Shower back to QT tank.

There is an excellent thread on diy shower here, 2 threads actually and am sorry I can't remember poster and will have to find it again... but I will and say my thanks. I am pretty useless on diy but am going to try and copy what was done so excellently. From what I have seen it works extremely well.

Filter media... Pond... vortex with brushes... ki heavily aereated... jap matting cartridges and then undecided if I will have sponges or nothing but there will be at LEAST 3 chamgers after the Vortex... maybe have still ki in chamber after Vortex and move others 1 along? That would mean 4 chambers after Vortex. This will depend really on the pond size and input. All chambers will have aereation with super aereation in ki chamber. If I go for 2 bottom drains [don't think this is likely] will gravity feed to a second skimmer and return over a shower.

Shower media... I invested a lot in sinterax [sintered glass tubes] and have it a lot still in small and large sizes. Also have a lot of lava stone so because of cost thats what will be used in shower for QT and pond if I have 1 there. The BHM clearly seems to be best, but I can't take that investment initially sadly ;/.

[Limey]

Thanks Bob will def take that into account! You are right... I am... was... of the thinking of once every 2-3 hour turn over.

Ok this is last of my starting post.... seperated it for me as much as anything heh... some things I am maybe being old fashioned about but anyway...

Sieves... discounted them totally... would have to because of cost, and even if I budgeted in think I could spend the money better elsewhere... BHM for example... anyway, I can see it makes it easier but I never did mind a bit of muck sorting the filter out... not always nice but something satisfying getting stuck in heh... and the plants like it .

Enclosed filter units... discounted by me simply because I just like to see what is happening. if its all closed up I can't see. Remember someone once telling me early on that just because the water looks clean and lovely doesn't mean it is (will be setting up my medical kit and testing stuff before the first fish arrives and see I can get all my chemicals here which is GREAT!). Not sure what that has to do with enclosed units haha but anyway I just like to see what's happening, so personal choice because again there are some that look to be excellent. Don't think I am being old fashioned here am I? Just a preference .

I will see about taking some pics of the virgin garden and where qt tank is going before the week end and hopefully will have an idea of what 'land' I am working with then too.

Thanks for reading, and PLEASE I am very open minded and keen to learn - NOTHING I have written is in stone, it's my current feeling and thoughts. Happy Koi Keeping all... and I wonder if you know how I envy you that are able to get those terrific feelings of calmness when you visit especially at night those living jewels... At my old place was considered a little ecentric because I would simply sit out there at night on my chair with a coffee and a smoke 52 weeks of the year in all weathers.... Very nice to have found some other 'eccentrics' Definitely feel lucky to have found this site!

[Limey]

Hi Limey,

Welcome back to the hobby!!

Oval shape. Will be liner, bottom drain gravity feed .

Could you elabirate a touch on that a bit mate, i take it's goner be part raised above ground & some in the ground?

Are you using all blockwork or part block work?

Many question's but 1 step at a time

Hi Yorkie... yeah didn't make that clear... it will be part above. Right now am thinking a 2 foot wall - water level stopping about 6" from the top - liner I will take behind the brick and seal brick with G4 or whatever is current flavour... will expand on that when I talk to my brother in law. I want a depth of at LEAST 4 feet in the pond - preferably 6 - but not sure what maybe under where the pond goes so that has an influence. I wouldn't have a pond less than 4 feet deep, but even if I could go all 6 feet down would like a ledge to perch on .

I am going oval just to ease the lines and think it will fit into garden better but a big reason is I am trying to avoid creating any pond dead spots best I can... hoping I can get a decent enough movement in the pond via water returns to sort of 'vortex' down to bottom drain... sort of why I am think I will be 1 bottom drain... even if I get lucky on what land I have to work with doubt 2 drains will worl for better... maybe wrong will see from input when I have dimensions .

Am going liner because of cost... if cost was no object then well sheesh would be too easy right . I would go fibreglass.

I will try and sort diagrams and pics out of what I am intending. Including how the liner will work behind wall... it's something I have seen used and works pretty well.

regards Dave

[Bob Hart]

Work out the cost of the liner, they aint that cheap for a decent one. A few people have had issues with them in recent years, caddis larvae eating through them.

Fibreglass will last forever and you can abuse it without fear of damaging it.

[Yorkie]

Hi Limey/Bob,

Got to agree with Bob hear, a good quality liner will almost set you back as "glass".

what type of ground do you have up there in Northants?

[eds]

Personally I'd forget about brushes and have a vortex, then a DIY Easy with static K1 (either in the vortex or in a separate chamber) then fluidised K1 in one or more chambers. The static K1 will do all the jobs brushes will but to a much finer degree of particle removal and be much easier to clean.

Personally I'll be going for a streamflow pond (broadly rectangular with air lift drains at the deep end and then a shower filter) when I do my next one, but that means some compromises to your plan and a bigger pump whereas you could run a DIY K1 filter by air alone and not even need a water pump.

[Bob Hart]

Ed is right about the filters, those multibays are never fitted now

Static K1 and then aerated K1 is generally the way to go + showers

[Bob Hart]

and forget 1.5" pipework, use 2" all the way now.

No slide valves that eventually let by, double union ball valves

[Limey]

Phew lots of advice thank you! Ok rather than put a bunch of posts quoting will try and respond to what has been said here.... Eds.... was sort of thinking of brushes in vortex... then maybe static k1 then fluidised etc as above... brushes on dowel rods are pretty easy to deal with and still have a bunch of black knights heh... take the point on static k1 catching more.

Liner v Fibreglass... will do a costn comparison on that - am confident if I have to 'buy in' the expertise to do it then it will come out higher... I would use good quality liner, butyl - firestone or epdm[?] so not too worried about it being a problem, do worry about fitting the bottom drain to a liner though... messed up before on that one! Caddis larvae will have to google that.. doesn't sound good ;/. Not sure of ground type... will check that out. A rough estimate on liner before I know final pond size is its likely to be around £500 :/.

2" pipework and union valves it will be... thank you for tip Bob... multi bay hmmm... I am beginning to think I should go for blocked chambers and then can have the chambers work as whatever and be reincarnated as something else as and when... way I look at it is that yes it is multiple bays but they are just links in the filtration... can have something or nothing...(?) - it's what each chamber does within the size constraint... Thinking also that perhaps a 2nd skimmer should be incorporated that could operate a pond shower for the warmer months - maybe include that even if I don't have it running as a shower intitially, but as a say simple venturi return - would help with the flow I would like to have going in the pond too.

Giving me a lot to think about, thank you . Aereated Drains... why is this your first choice.... plenty of opportunities to introduce air elsewhere, and I want the crap to be 'swirled' to the bottom drain by pond movement and design... hmm does the air upflow maybe add to that happening? Undecided ;/.

Took a few rough measurements but need to add diagrams and pics for them to be properly understandable... wish me luck on my 'pitch' probably tomorrow
I really do appreciate the input, I have no illusions about how out of date I am, and the bad habits I probably still have... Want to keep the wishing I had done x or y as minimum as possible heh... any flexibility would be good... why I am thinking of putting a 2nd skimmer in from the off and going for chambers that can be changed to whatever. Sigh... good job that even the planning is great eh Isn't imagination a great thing .

[vippymini]

hi, another thing to think of is which pumps are you going to use for moving the water around.
you have the ideal chance to use some of the low wattage pumps available. a good choice of pump now could save you a fortune later.

[eds]

Eds.... was sort of thinking of brushes in vortex... then maybe static k1 then fluidised etc as above... brushes on dowel rods are pretty easy to deal with and still have a bunch of black knights heh... take the point on static k1 catching more.

Personally I don't think you'll need both. The brushes will just catch some of the rubbish and so will the static K1 leaving you twice as much to clean! And you don't want to leave the dirt in there anyway - much better having one static chamber which you can clean by simply isolating it, turning the air on and draining away the dirty water every few days or so. You can have the static chamber in the vortex, it just means you'll end up flushing the vortex everytime you clean the K1, which is no bad thing as you'll stop the rubbish collecting at the base of the vortex chamber for too long where it just decays and adds to the load on your filter.

[Bob Hart]

Ask about see if you can pick up some second hand cheap vortex units. Use them in pairs, 1 static K1 the second for aerated. It's all you need really, much the same as a Nexus except they take up a little bit more room. Use a pair off of a bottom drain and you'll have a simple but very effective filter. 2 bottom drain, 2 pairs.