it will be taking up room shall i come get him /LEENow thats what I call Sumi
Moderators: B.Scott, vippymini, Gazza, Manky Sanke
-
tomy2ponds
- Great White Shark
- Posts: 1033
- Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:24 pm
- Location: Surrey/London borders
In an assessment, I would say there is a far higher probability of that koi's sumi deterioitating in UK waters than it maintaining or certainly improving.
The utsuri shown has been prepared for showing by the breeder who knows this koi best. It would be arrogant to think that such care could be improved upon, surely?
Given the major factor of this koi is it deep sumi then one would be taking an incredible risk.
That said, if I had a spare few acres for a mud pond, and the spare money to heat all year at the right levels and also to condition the water appriopriately for shiro and showa development in a large pond then I'd be prepared to give it a go.
(Yep, seperate pond for my kohakus!)
Good looking brood stock by the way. Who is he paired with normally?
Oh and it would is the first koi, Jen.
Tom
The utsuri shown has been prepared for showing by the breeder who knows this koi best. It would be arrogant to think that such care could be improved upon, surely?
Given the major factor of this koi is it deep sumi then one would be taking an incredible risk.
That said, if I had a spare few acres for a mud pond, and the spare money to heat all year at the right levels and also to condition the water appriopriately for shiro and showa development in a large pond then I'd be prepared to give it a go.
(Yep, seperate pond for my kohakus!)Good looking brood stock by the way. Who is he paired with normally?
Oh and it would is the first koi, Jen.
Tom
hi,
i cant decide which one i like the best, i like the first one cause it is a classy fish and is solid , but the second one is high quality and a more interesting pattern, more to look at (more character)
so if i had the chance to show a fish it would definatly be no.1
but i would enjoy no. 2 fish in my pond more
does that make sense
i cant decide which one i like the best, i like the first one cause it is a classy fish and is solid , but the second one is high quality and a more interesting pattern, more to look at (more character)
so if i had the chance to show a fish it would definatly be no.1
but i would enjoy no. 2 fish in my pond more
does that make sense
Well, I agree that the 2nd koi wins on pattern. While that's a very personal thing, I think he'd poll more votes than the 1st in this category.
However, I do believe that in all other categories Koi 1 would win. And it's a bit of an unfair competition.
I think koi 2 is cracking and hope to see his partner.
Again, depends on what you are buying for. For me, if I am going to buy a koi it has to have future development potential but it also has to fit into the look of my collection.
Tom
However, I do believe that in all other categories Koi 1 would win. And it's a bit of an unfair competition.
I think koi 2 is cracking and hope to see his partner.
Again, depends on what you are buying for. For me, if I am going to buy a koi it has to have future development potential but it also has to fit into the look of my collection.
Tom
-
Cuttlebrook Koi
- architeuthis moderator
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:12 am
- Location: Oxfordshire
- Contact:
As soon as I saw the picture of the first koi, it reminded me of ours so much that I just had to post the picture. It's not a fair comparison though as our poor boy is kept in an unheated pond and definitely hasn't been honed for showing! We used him for the first time last year and he was one of two males we used together (the other was bred by Omosako) along with the female, which was new to us last spring, and which was bred by Ofuchi. Unfortunately I don't have a picture to show you of the female as at the moment, I only have the hard copy that I was given when we bought her (note to self - must take more pictures brood fish!). The offspring though are the ones in the shiro utsuri thread in the Cuttlebrook Section.
The first fish is definitely the better and considering the care that will have gone in to growing it and preparing it for such a prestigious show, it certainly should be!
I wasn’t sure Tom if you were saying that such excellence could not be achieved in the UK or that this particular fish could not improved and so could only deteriorate. Thanks for explaining.
Lisa
The first fish is definitely the better and considering the care that will have gone in to growing it and preparing it for such a prestigious show, it certainly should be!
I wasn’t sure Tom if you were saying that such excellence could not be achieved in the UK or that this particular fish could not improved and so could only deteriorate. Thanks for explaining.
Lisa
-
GERRY5
- Great White Shark
- Posts: 903
- Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:54 pm
- Location: feurteventura canary islands spain
well i like and admire lisa and marks brood fish as well and the offspring ive seen certainly do justice to there parents (especially dad ) the pattern is stunning and already here in our waters ,so is it therefore more likely to keep its strong sumi rather than its pampered japanese counterpart 
i realise of course brood fish dont have to look pretty as they are there to be producers , but this ones looks good as well..
i realise of course brood fish dont have to look pretty as they are there to be producers , but this ones looks good as well..
Gerry
Depends on what kind of water you put the koi in. The type of water (pH, KH, GH, minerals) will influence the koi's development. You, in part, have to choose a balance between hi and sumi development. Hence my comment about seperate ponds between kohakus and shiros IF I had the choice/land/money/lifestyle/etc.
Anyone wishing for sumi development should buy tap water off Gazza.
Tom
Depends on what kind of water you put the koi in. The type of water (pH, KH, GH, minerals) will influence the koi's development. You, in part, have to choose a balance between hi and sumi development. Hence my comment about seperate ponds between kohakus and shiros IF I had the choice/land/money/lifestyle/etc.
Anyone wishing for sumi development should buy tap water off Gazza.
Tom
-
Cuttlebrook Koi
- architeuthis moderator
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:12 am
- Location: Oxfordshire
- Contact:
Lisa, I am saying the reverse: sumi/harder water, hi/softer water.
Sumi appears to develop faster in harder water, yes. Now by harder I am referring to GH and not KH reading. See
http://www.yumekoi.com/articles/april_2003.pdf
http://www.koiquest.co.uk/water%20hardness.htm
which are a mix of the same article. There is other research but would mean trawling through NI etc.
I suppose putting aside the term hardness, sumi is affected by the conditions that the koi exists in. There are plenty of pictures of go-sanke coming out of mud ponds with their sumi "down" only to be repictured after a few weeks in a concrete pond with their sumi "back up".
OK, you can show me your pic now of a koi with deep sumi sat in KH 1, GH 2 water.
Tom
Sumi appears to develop faster in harder water, yes. Now by harder I am referring to GH and not KH reading. See
http://www.yumekoi.com/articles/april_2003.pdf
http://www.koiquest.co.uk/water%20hardness.htm
which are a mix of the same article. There is other research but would mean trawling through NI etc.
I suppose putting aside the term hardness, sumi is affected by the conditions that the koi exists in. There are plenty of pictures of go-sanke coming out of mud ponds with their sumi "down" only to be repictured after a few weeks in a concrete pond with their sumi "back up".
OK, you can show me your pic now of a koi with deep sumi sat in KH 1, GH 2 water.
Tom
-
Cuttlebrook Koi
- architeuthis moderator
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:12 am
- Location: Oxfordshire
- Contact:
Hi Tom
You’re absolutely right about hard water being better for sumi – this has been our experience here at Cuttlebrook. When Mark worked in Japan in 1986 he was told by Mr Kamihata and others that hard water made good sumi, green water made good hi and good living conditions made good shiroji.
Thanks for the links to Mike’s articles. He seems to be saying that the main benefit of softer water is better growth rates and that sumi and shiroji in particular are better in hard water.
Mikes conclusion:
CONCLUSION
There are two routes to take with hardness levels in your pond.
HIGH GH LEVELS
Good white ground and sumi development, but poor growth rates. (Ideal for those that are
hoping to show their Koi, or those that have less time to devote to pond maintenance).
LOW GH LEVELS. High growth rates, deep and even Hi,
but weaker white skin, and slower Sumi development. Bear in mind however, that just a few
weeks in hard water will improve the white skin ready for a Koi Show.
When we first read this article, some time ago, it was interesting as we had never come across any scientific research to support or otherwise the benefits of soft water. Now, we have the benefit of personal experience in this area and with 8 month old Koromo up to 28 cm and Chagoi at 55 cm at 18 months old in our own warm water growing on facility, I think we may be doing a little myth busting! (Our own water has a Ph of 7.9 at source which drops to 7.6 in the indoor tanks.) We are still in the early days with our warm water growing on facilities but I am sure that as time goes by, these growth rates will be pretty commonplace for our koi.
The only other issue is that of the quality of the hi.
[img]http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m16/Cutt ... June05.jpg[/img]
This picture was taken of one of our Kohaku just after it came out of one of our mud ponds back in June 2005. (It had never seen heated water and so had a totally natural growth rate and body shape). The type of hi that one looks for on a koi is to a degree down to individual preference. Some prefer a soft beni and others a deeper stronger red. It can also depend on the trend at the time. We’re quite pleased with the quality of the hi that we are producing.
Here is the same fish last year after it had spent some time in Sukoi’s pond, where it is currently growing on and seems to be improving all the time, thanks to Sue’s good pond management rather than soft water though. This would seem to suggest that there are many factors involved in maintaining good hi both environmental, dietary and genetic and to what degree soft water has an influence is still open to debate.
[img]http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m16/Cutt ... aDavis.jpg[/img]
We always listen to what others say and are not arrogant enough to assume that we know everything – there is always something more to be learned. All we can ever do is base our conclusions on either sound scientific research, or in the absence of that, our own experience and, rather like the Japanese, make the most of the water that we have available.
I imagine that the old soft water versus hard water debate will run and run, but in the meantime, we just keep doing what works best for us, which is all anyone can do really.
As for the sumi in the mud ponds, when we put our nisai back out in the mud ponds to grow on at the beginning of last summer, the sumi was really well developed but when we harvested them in the autumn, the sumi was not nearly as strong. As you say though, it does come back when we bring the fish back inside. It's the same water though, so there are obviously other factors at play here. A couple of theories so far are that firstly the high temperatures reached over the summer in the mud ponds have an adverse affect on the sumi and secondly, that the chromataphors in the black pigment cells are reacting to the colour of the mud ponds, making the fish paler. I am sure there are other factors at play too like perhaps water quality maybe. (These are just theories, they are not scientific facts!)
This koi breeding lark is quite complicated really isn't it? There's a bit more to it than chucking two fish in a pond and letting them get on with thats for sure!
Lisa
You’re absolutely right about hard water being better for sumi – this has been our experience here at Cuttlebrook. When Mark worked in Japan in 1986 he was told by Mr Kamihata and others that hard water made good sumi, green water made good hi and good living conditions made good shiroji.
Thanks for the links to Mike’s articles. He seems to be saying that the main benefit of softer water is better growth rates and that sumi and shiroji in particular are better in hard water.
Mikes conclusion:
CONCLUSION
There are two routes to take with hardness levels in your pond.
HIGH GH LEVELS
Good white ground and sumi development, but poor growth rates. (Ideal for those that are
hoping to show their Koi, or those that have less time to devote to pond maintenance).
LOW GH LEVELS. High growth rates, deep and even Hi,
but weaker white skin, and slower Sumi development. Bear in mind however, that just a few
weeks in hard water will improve the white skin ready for a Koi Show.
When we first read this article, some time ago, it was interesting as we had never come across any scientific research to support or otherwise the benefits of soft water. Now, we have the benefit of personal experience in this area and with 8 month old Koromo up to 28 cm and Chagoi at 55 cm at 18 months old in our own warm water growing on facility, I think we may be doing a little myth busting! (Our own water has a Ph of 7.9 at source which drops to 7.6 in the indoor tanks.) We are still in the early days with our warm water growing on facilities but I am sure that as time goes by, these growth rates will be pretty commonplace for our koi.
The only other issue is that of the quality of the hi.
[img]http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m16/Cutt ... June05.jpg[/img]
This picture was taken of one of our Kohaku just after it came out of one of our mud ponds back in June 2005. (It had never seen heated water and so had a totally natural growth rate and body shape). The type of hi that one looks for on a koi is to a degree down to individual preference. Some prefer a soft beni and others a deeper stronger red. It can also depend on the trend at the time. We’re quite pleased with the quality of the hi that we are producing.
Here is the same fish last year after it had spent some time in Sukoi’s pond, where it is currently growing on and seems to be improving all the time, thanks to Sue’s good pond management rather than soft water though. This would seem to suggest that there are many factors involved in maintaining good hi both environmental, dietary and genetic and to what degree soft water has an influence is still open to debate.
[img]http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m16/Cutt ... aDavis.jpg[/img]
We always listen to what others say and are not arrogant enough to assume that we know everything – there is always something more to be learned. All we can ever do is base our conclusions on either sound scientific research, or in the absence of that, our own experience and, rather like the Japanese, make the most of the water that we have available.
I imagine that the old soft water versus hard water debate will run and run, but in the meantime, we just keep doing what works best for us, which is all anyone can do really.
As for the sumi in the mud ponds, when we put our nisai back out in the mud ponds to grow on at the beginning of last summer, the sumi was really well developed but when we harvested them in the autumn, the sumi was not nearly as strong. As you say though, it does come back when we bring the fish back inside. It's the same water though, so there are obviously other factors at play here. A couple of theories so far are that firstly the high temperatures reached over the summer in the mud ponds have an adverse affect on the sumi and secondly, that the chromataphors in the black pigment cells are reacting to the colour of the mud ponds, making the fish paler. I am sure there are other factors at play too like perhaps water quality maybe. (These are just theories, they are not scientific facts!)
This koi breeding lark is quite complicated really isn't it? There's a bit more to it than chucking two fish in a pond and letting them get on with thats for sure!
Lisa
Lisa, just be glad its not that simple otherwise we would all be at it and that would be bad for business
On another note although we all know that the first Shiro is very high quality would you choose this for breeding over the other, or does the other have properties which make it better to breed from even if it would not do so well as a finished show fish?
I sort of feel that this should be in the Cuttlebrook section but your posts got me thinking.
From personal experience of hard water it does really seem to bring out the sumi nicely.
Stuart
On another note although we all know that the first Shiro is very high quality would you choose this for breeding over the other, or does the other have properties which make it better to breed from even if it would not do so well as a finished show fish?
I sort of feel that this should be in the Cuttlebrook section but your posts got me thinking.
From personal experience of hard water it does really seem to bring out the sumi nicely.
Stuart
Thanks, Lisa. Interesting.
I see the koi shown has quite long sashi - i.e. over 1.5 to 2 scales in places. Is that common in your spawnings? I am seeing a lot more of this in Japan too - was just looking at a Matsue koi today that had 2 deep sashi, and I know RK's exclusive breeder produces similar.
If I wasn't on a water meter then I'd play around a lot more with my water but the water bill is bad enough before I start throwing it away. My pH is 7.8, KH 4, and GH 10-12, TDS 230. So not bad - kind of in the middle. The sumi on my koi (that have sumi development to do) seems to come up reasonable well but not really darken. But it definitely comes up. I had an almost white shiro that is now closer to 50:50 for example. My water seems to hold sumi that is up though and I have a sanke who has the blackest sumi I have seen in a sanke and it has remained constant (bred in Isawa so sumi expected to be strong).
Re: mud ponds v indoors. For sure, I think temperature is a factor. You are right too about pigment reaction to background. Kodama San (in Kokugyo v1, p89) points this out: "Because sumi is a protective colo(u)ring, Sumi becomes lighter when we put Koi in a bright pond or pool."
One unanswered question in my mind is if regular claying of a man-made pond does indeed enhance pigmentation. Some obviously swear by it.
Tom
I see the koi shown has quite long sashi - i.e. over 1.5 to 2 scales in places. Is that common in your spawnings? I am seeing a lot more of this in Japan too - was just looking at a Matsue koi today that had 2 deep sashi, and I know RK's exclusive breeder produces similar.
If I wasn't on a water meter then I'd play around a lot more with my water but the water bill is bad enough before I start throwing it away. My pH is 7.8, KH 4, and GH 10-12, TDS 230. So not bad - kind of in the middle. The sumi on my koi (that have sumi development to do) seems to come up reasonable well but not really darken. But it definitely comes up. I had an almost white shiro that is now closer to 50:50 for example. My water seems to hold sumi that is up though and I have a sanke who has the blackest sumi I have seen in a sanke and it has remained constant (bred in Isawa so sumi expected to be strong).
Re: mud ponds v indoors. For sure, I think temperature is a factor. You are right too about pigment reaction to background. Kodama San (in Kokugyo v1, p89) points this out: "Because sumi is a protective colo(u)ring, Sumi becomes lighter when we put Koi in a bright pond or pool."
One unanswered question in my mind is if regular claying of a man-made pond does indeed enhance pigmentation. Some obviously swear by it.
Tom
-
Cuttlebrook Koi
- architeuthis moderator
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:12 am
- Location: Oxfordshire
- Contact:
Hi Stuart
It's difficult to say without seeing it in the flesh whether the first koi would make a good brood fish. It's downfall would really be its secondary hi. Omosako may have brood stock with secondary hi, but it is not desireable and I am sure that if he comes across a koi with the same qualities but with no secondary hi, he might well try using that one instead.
Hi Tom
We have used several different sets of Kohaku brood fish over the years and whilst some produce great results, we have to look at the overall percentage of high quality koi in each spawning. We still do not feel that we have found a parent set that produces not just the high quality that we want but also in the numbers that make that parent set viable. On that basis, it is difficult to say that our koi have a tendancy to produce a particular style of sashi at this stage.
We aren't really qualified to answer the question on whether it is a good idea to add clay or not to a pond as it isn't something we have ever done and I haven't come across any scientific research to support its use. I am sure there are some people who swear by it but whether the perceived benefits are as a result of the clay or as a result of their diligent koi keeping is hard to say.
Anybody got any conclusive evidence that is works?
Lisa
It's difficult to say without seeing it in the flesh whether the first koi would make a good brood fish. It's downfall would really be its secondary hi. Omosako may have brood stock with secondary hi, but it is not desireable and I am sure that if he comes across a koi with the same qualities but with no secondary hi, he might well try using that one instead.
Hi Tom
We have used several different sets of Kohaku brood fish over the years and whilst some produce great results, we have to look at the overall percentage of high quality koi in each spawning. We still do not feel that we have found a parent set that produces not just the high quality that we want but also in the numbers that make that parent set viable. On that basis, it is difficult to say that our koi have a tendancy to produce a particular style of sashi at this stage.
We aren't really qualified to answer the question on whether it is a good idea to add clay or not to a pond as it isn't something we have ever done and I haven't come across any scientific research to support its use. I am sure there are some people who swear by it but whether the perceived benefits are as a result of the clay or as a result of their diligent koi keeping is hard to say.
Anybody got any conclusive evidence that is works?
Lisa