The weather!! a newbie worries,will they die????

[vippymini]

as your still in the building stage may i ask "why no bottom drain?"
its the easiest and by far the best way to get water from the pond to the filter.

[silverghost]

VM this will mean cutting a hole in the liner,and surely more work for the OAP ? Perhaps if I could see a bottom drain working,it would be different.We are isolated here so not much chance to see professional Koi ponds,although the water centres we have visited all had them,I could ask there.All my fish are young now,but I know they will grow big (if they live ).I also like as many plants as possible,especially floaters.I have had largish goldfish/wildlife ponds in previous houses without any filters and they all did remarkably well and bred regularly. I know Koi are different.
I don't want this venture to get out of hand with all the latest "must haves" --for an example, some people change cars every year even though there is nothing wrong with their current cars.Once that stage is reached the pleasant relaxing hobby could turn into an expensive nightmare.I love my large garden I don't want it turned into a set from Star Wars.Nothing looks uglier than rows of tanks and pipes beside a pond.There is a thin red line in this.However I am only a novice and you are probably an expert,so yes please do correct me

[GERRY5]

silver , you could always fit a retro bottom drain later , as for koi you have to remember they are a lot "dirtier fish" than most , i.e. produce more waste etc than most species , they will also love your plants in the pond , it is a salad bar to them especially if theres a lily or two to munch , most will say that all that should be in a koi pond is water and koi , but it dosent have to be totally like that , a mixture of fish in your case combined with plant life can be achieved , but i think will need to be monitored , where are you in isolation somebody may be able to give you a few pointers to dealers\ ponds in your area or within reasonable travelling distance anyway...good luck keep asking away

[Jagger]

I have to decide on the Butyl liner now.I thought there was only one type when we built the other Koi pond,but it seems there are different qualities.

Use Firestone EPDM 1.0mm.Ask for it by name,say it's for a koi pond when buying it,and keep the receipt.It should be smooth to the touch and not textured.Do not use anything that's described as "butyl" (from bitter personal experience.Twice ).

Not having a bottom drain is cheaper and easier but means much more work cleaning the bottom of the pond regularly later on.

Don't believe it when you're offered a filter that filters 5,000 gallons (it'll probably cope with 1000 gallons and a couple of goldfish in the pond).Get the biggest,easiest to clean filter you can find and hide it.

[silverghost]

Gerry thanks for the tip about adding the drain later on,I may have to if the babies all survive, we are just in the planning stage now, waiting for better weather living near the Brecon Beacons,so pretty high here.
Jagger thanks for the tip on the Butyl,I knew there must be a difference.Today we drove over to a water garden retail outlet and we bought the FIRESTONE liner,it was 20% off,and is nice and smooth, but they were nearing the end of a roll so the price may go up..The liner in the original pond is rougher as you warned,although very thick,so fingers crossed!!!!

[Jagger]

Good stuff.

Your old Butyl,however thick it is,is composed of organic material (mainly latex and carbon)that is subjected to a heat treatment.Your new EPDM liner is 100% synthetic polymer fake rubber and deteriorates at a minuscule rate compared to butyl.

[maxinegrundy]

Hello )
As everyone else has mentioned bottom drains .. i thought i would too ...
I have one pond with no bottom drain ..and it's a nightmare to keep clean in summer when they are feeding lots ..even with the oase 3 hoover it would still need doing 3 times a week..i know you may not have got many koi at the moment ..but even a few can still produce an amazing amount of watse ..
And to give them the best environment you need as much waste as possible going to the filter and not sitting at the bottom of the pond as this will make a great home for bad bacteria and parasites ... and i dont keep plants in the pond either as the plant pots just get emptied by the koi ...if you are going to plant then use gravel and not pond soil.
Bottom drains help keep the pond floor clean and all the poo goes straight to the filter.
It is well worth doing ..as you will have more time to enjoy your koi ..than spending lots of time cleaning up after them..althought the filters will still need cleaning .. that hour or so hoovering and topping back up .. you could be spending that time sat by the pond just chillin
You can pick up bottom drains off good olde eBay ..and the pipe work from local DIY store.
If your going to build a big BIG pond then it 's a must have ..you would'nt regret it !!!
regards
Max

[silverghost]

Thanks Maxine - I put the drain theory to the OAP builder but he wants the base level not sloping,and he does not want to cut the liner (perish the thought),so it looks as if it will be an Oase 3 for me too.!!
I work from home so I can keep an eye on the ponds through the day,and the fish I have are all youngsters at the moment.I counted about 21 altogether today, there are 6 Koi,shubunkins,orfe,comets and 2 goldfish.The 2 larger ponds will be for the Koi.. When I buy (DV) more Koi babies in the Spring, they will have to be what I like - I won't be rushing to buy loads of Koi just for the sake of it.I like the idea of studying the fish,buying young and then seeing how they develop later. We used to show Gundogs years back,and I know Koi are a mile apart from dogs,but the same principles apply -- patience can bring results.I am wading through books trying to educate myself,some of the adult Koi look amazing. I have just bought a book by Peter Waddington.One book I have and find excellent is the Cult of the Koi. Anyway,I am here to learn as an absolute newbie,so a BIG thanks for all the help.

[Carl]

Hi Silverghost, i dont wish to sound rude But as nice as the guy is who is building your pond i think he maybe a little out of touch with the times as far as Koi ponds go. A bottom drain is really a must in a Koi pond thousands of Koi keepers over the world cant be wrong I have spoken to many people who have not got bottom drains and they all wish they had put one in as the maintainance is a nightmare constantly vacuuming the bottom especially in the summer and it dosnt do the fishes stress levels good either to keep having to perform this task, i think you will soon get fed up with this task as its less time to relax and sit and watch the fish go about their business, you will soon wish you had one fitted, plus the amount of water these vacs use. Take a look at this site this is one of many that deal with pond construction etc http://www.koicymru.co.uk/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Maybe you should re suggest to the guy building the pond you want a bottom drain as it you who going to have the grief of vacuuming it every week

[Andy H]

I built my pond 20 years ago and did put a bottom drain in. This was only done because I was talking to a guy on Prestel (pre internet) and we went 150 miles to look at his amazing pond and he gave us drawings etc. we did our best and it is still there but loses water a bit. The bottom drain is a godsend. Glad we did it.
I just wish we could get that wrickle out the liner that gets a build up of poo stopping it getting to the drain! In summer now that we have lots of air moving the water it doesn`t settle there.

There are many excellent ponds and then some like mine and some a lot less sophisticated! As long as we enjoy them and the fish are ok then fine.
Saying that, from pictures and advice on here, my thinking has changed and a filter diy alteration this year means much less maintenance, still needs doing but now it is a pleasure with these out door temps this time of year. Last year it was freezing hands etc. Our Koi kill all plants due to the design of ours so their "atmosphere" that they live in is strictly down to how I keep the water that they live in, not perfect but ok.

I too like most of my mongrel fish! One day I may be able to afford to enlist the help of a pro and build a good pond!

But good luck in your ponds and fish enjoyment whatever you decide, if anyone near you offers you a look at their pond then take them up on it!
(hint hint near Gatwick)!!!

[maxinegrundy]

Hello Silver
Thats a good idea of Andy H ..if you can see some other ponds ..
your more than welcome to see our work in progress give me a call if you want to come and have a look ..(sent phone number in private message check your koiquest inbox)
I also have a spare bottom drain and some 4" pipework that you would be more than welcome to.
Our WIP pond has a flat bottom ..as it will have a liner going in it .. and it's going to have a window in too .. so it can be done
If i can do all this being a mere woman .. i am sure your builder and yourself can get you heads together and work it all out !! LOL
regards
Max

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Dscf7307.jpg (29.04 KiB) Viewed 11479 times

[silverghost]

Hi Maxine,it is very nice of you to offer help as you have.I would love to come and see your set up but unfortunately I cannot travel far due to ill health.The latest is that the pool is coming on at a spanking pace,the 6 - 9 inch base of concrete is setting,and some of the walls have been started with double thick blocks,the OAP would not use single blocks.He is very careful to make sure the blocks are laid properly as he insists that if not cracks will appear in a few years.
Not far from here is a Koi enthusiast called King Koi you know the type!!!. Anyway he hadn't been to check on his 4 year old pond for a few days and unfortunately the bottom drain was leaking and most of the water had gone.He had 300 fish in that pond,but not all Koi!!..My builder was adamant he was not going to cut the liner for any drain,and the incident has really scared me.
I manage to clean the other larger pond,the filter works well and the plants are OK,the Koi haven't bothered with them much,apart from nestle in them,perhaps if the fish are brought up with plants they take less notice of them? I have added another double layer of Bubble on top of the pond to make that 6 layers now.All the fish are fine and still eating a bit of flake.I was going to take the comets out but they are very intelligent fish,always the first for food,and leaders of the shoals.Some of the Koi are feeding but not much,although I am only giving small amounts.
I haven't had any ice on the Bubble wrapped pond at all,even though the temps have plummeted here.We are 1100 feet above sea level here.
I am looking forward to the Spring,but I expect you all are.

[Gin Rin]

I understand your concerns and worries but properly sealed into the bottom drain doesn't mean it will leak. If you use a liner then yes leaks can occur but this is true regardless of having a bottom drain. I would go further by saying if you have a bottom drain then there will be less need for you to be putting anything in the pond to clean / brush the bottom like a vacuum cleaner that increases the risk of damage.

Regarding the single block construction, there is nothing wrong with it and it doesn't follow that it is bound to lead to cracks appearing. That is more likely going to happen due to a poorly prepared base, too think a concrete base, settlement issues, poor mortar mix etc. There is no need to build it to nuclear bunker specifications

I am sure that the OAP has made up his mind as regards to construction so anything we say from this point re construction is irrelevant, but..

...there are other issues as to why a bottom drain is a good idea. Having a pump in the pond is just something in the pond that the Koi can injure themselves on. Also a Pump is more likely than a bottom drain to cause the pond to empty. If your filter blocks when you have a gravity fed system, as long as the top of the filters are placed above pond water surface level they will not overflow, the height of the water will level off to the level of the pond, the system effectively stops circulating, not good but not a disaster. In a pump driven system the pump would continue to pump the water to the filter and be able to overflow the filter until the pond is empty, or at the level of the pump inlet. It might be an idea to think of installing a method of switching the pump off once the filter level exceeds a certain point. If the pump fails then the contents of the filter can drain back into the pond, poo and all, depending on the height of the filter in relation to the pond, which in many pump fed systems is higher than the pond as they tend to be gravity return. Again depending on the filter system, the filters can hold quite a volume of water which could overflow your pond if they were to drain back into it. If this is a danger then perhaps look into fitting a few non return valves onto the system.

[maxinegrundy]

Hello Silver
Yes i think we are all looking forward to the spring .. way too cold to be outside for us and the koi.
Keep an eye on your feeding ..if they dont eat it ..net it out ..
Mine were all asking for food at 2c but never took it ..so out came the net ..i wont even try feeding them again until they practically have my hand off ..
And i felt so sorry for the babies i brought their tank into the conservatory and stuck a small heater on ...i couldnt stand seeing them lined up like little sausages in the bottom of the tank ..they looked so fed up ...not now though
So i have another big leccy bill to look forward too AGAIN
Bubble wrap is great for a quick cover ..it does help ..but make sure you leave a gap to gas off.
Dont forget to lag the pipes up and you can always wrap the filter up too .. it all helps ...i have a bubble bead filter that looks like something from the lunar landing at the moment as i have stuck loads of the foil backed bubblewrap round it ..looks quite cool really

King Koi's .. there are loads of them and of course they know everything
I know it's cold out but i check on my koi at the very least twice a day ...and i have back up too my neighbours that will check too and they know what to do if something goes wrong .. thank god for great neighbours !

it is just nice when you meet koi keepers that really do know their stuff but dont have to brag about it .. stick with the questers and you wont go far wrong ..if you find conflicting ideas ..then research it yourself the internet is a fantastic tool.
Get a good treatment box together for the "just in case"
And if you can afford it ..buy a microscope ..it's one of the best tools you'll ever use and it will pay for itself in no time ...if you cant afford one ..join a local koi club and borrow theirs ...
This is an amazing hobby .. passion..addiction..what ever you want to call it .. every aspect of koi keeping is worth investigating.
You can be involved as much as you want to be ...water chemistry..show koi.. treatments....water gardening..the list can go on.
But a basic knowledge of water testing.. what it should and shouldnt be and corrective measures.. parasite control or irradication should be at the top of the list.
keep their home clean and stable water and fish that are as parasite free as they can be .. and they will just love you to bits

And dont think for a mo that we all have show koi ..some have nice koi..some show koi.. some just run of the mill garden centre koi ..
thats the beauty of koi keeping .. if you love em ... it doesnt matter what anyone else thinks !

As newbie LOL you'll have loads of questions .. dont forget no question is silly ...ask away
and if you want a quick answer .. not saying i know it all ..but if your in a panic .. you have my phone number..as i know how good it feels to be able to talk to someone when you think everything is about to go wrong..
take care

regards
Max

[flatpack]

if you are after a scope lidl have got them back in 48.90