Hi all
I'm ready to insulate and fibreglass my pond. I plan to use Kingspan but have got confused by the supplier only having sheets which have foil on both sides. Is it possible to fibreglass over this, peel one side off or is it possible to source boards with only a single foil layer.
Regards
Jon
Which Kingspan for insulation?
Moderators: B.Scott, vippymini, Gazza, Manky Sanke
Re: Which Kingspan for insulation?
Jon,
I,m sure ive seen that Dave A can glass straight onto it, Best to ask the glasser what they prefer i surpose
Having worked with kingspan, i think you will end up in a right old muss if you try pealing off the silver
Cheer Dan
I,m sure ive seen that Dave A can glass straight onto it, Best to ask the glasser what they prefer i surpose
Having worked with kingspan, i think you will end up in a right old muss if you try pealing off the silver
Cheer Dan
Re: Which Kingspan for insulation?
Hi Dan
I'm doing the glassing myself so wanted to make sure that I give myself half a chance of getting right by having a surface that will take the glass easily. I've talked to someone who used Extratherm which is similar to Kingspan i.e. has foil both sides and they didn't create a key so that seems to tally with Dave A.
I guess I can get on with the ordering.
Thanks for your help.
Regards
Jon
I'm doing the glassing myself so wanted to make sure that I give myself half a chance of getting right by having a surface that will take the glass easily. I've talked to someone who used Extratherm which is similar to Kingspan i.e. has foil both sides and they didn't create a key so that seems to tally with Dave A.
I guess I can get on with the ordering.
Thanks for your help.
Regards
Jon
Re: Which Kingspan for insulation?
Hi Jon
Sorry just picked this thread up.
If I can recall correctly there may be problems glassing onto the foil but I am not 100%.
To be totally safe - drop Matthew a PM, he will know!!
Best regards
Dave
Sorry just picked this thread up.
If I can recall correctly there may be problems glassing onto the foil but I am not 100%.
To be totally safe - drop Matthew a PM, he will know!!
Best regards
Dave
Re: Which Kingspan for insulation?
Jon,
Like Davej I have only just spotted this thread and hope I can offer some support.
I understand there might be problems glassing onto the foil. As Davej suggests I would give Matthew (on this group under same name, keeps marines) a call or drop him an email as he has done many, can confess he is doing my pond soon.
No rendering required, just 25mm polyuthene ( I think
!) which he fixes onto the pond walls and floor and glasses straight over. 
Hope he can help you.
Regards
TicToc
Like Davej I have only just spotted this thread and hope I can offer some support.
I understand there might be problems glassing onto the foil. As Davej suggests I would give Matthew (on this group under same name, keeps marines) a call or drop him an email as he has done many, can confess he is doing my pond soon.
No rendering required, just 25mm polyuthene ( I think
!) which he fixes onto the pond walls and floor and glasses straight over. Hope he can help you.
Regards
TicToc
Re: Which Kingspan for insulation?
This is a purely advisory post which is intended to help the OP make a decision about which foam to use.
The pond in the following series of photos was self lined by my client at a cost of £150. It took him a weekend to install.
Each picture has its own description and I quote the client at the end of the pics.
Picture 1.
[img]http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg61/mat ... G_0605.jpg[/img]
The foil from the very top edge should be removed and sanded down to give a rolled edge for the grp to form to instead of the sharp edge as seen in the photo.
Picture 2.
[img]http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg61/mat ... G_0607.jpg[/img]
The fixing screw and washer should be sunk into the foam and not be protruding. The client did try to do this but the foam started to crack as he did it so he left them proud on the advice of the original grp specialist.
Picture 3.
[img]http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg61/mat ... G_0608.jpg[/img]
This gap is far too big even to be bridged by a 3mm grp system safely. It could have been filled by more foam or a filler but what a hassle that is!
Now. The foil backing on this 25mm thick foam and Kingspan foam is perfectly suitable to fibreglass onto but the bond is far better if done directly to the polyurethane underneath the foam. Technically a bond between the two materials isn't an issue as grp is not an adhesive with a guaranteed 'stick'. The fibreglass system is really a solid shell that is moulded to the structure it is applied to.
On the koi pond this foam was applied by the client the walls weren't brilliantly laid, nor was the floor and there was a lot of bounce in the foam that was installed. This could have potentially led to an unacceptable amount of movement in the grp system after it was installed. (see the pic of the gap in pic 3 for the other faults in the foam installation.) Grp should be installed against a rigid surface in a pond although a little movement is allowable. Sorry, hard to explain that one!
This foam was removed by the client and I fitted our 12mm PU foam which conformed much better to the curvature of the walls and the foor as the foam we use is more flexible that 25mm foam.
The client also used a cheap silicone on the back of the foil to hold it in place but upon removal of the screw fixings the foam actually fell off the walls because the silicone didn't fix to the foil. The foam in the pictures may have seemed cheap BUT with the entire job taking two weeks longer than required and with the colder weather drawing in, the client wanted the fish back in his pool asap and he wishes he'd have just gone with the better option in the first place.
NOTE: I have glassed over some well laid PU foam by the clients. i.e. minimal gaps that the grp can easily bridge but this is a case of it being done badly. If you are going to fix your own PU foam instead of render it must be done to a high standard with minimal gaps, minimal movement and remember the grp will follow the profile of what it is applied to and any discrepancies will show through.
I hope this helps the OP in making his choice. To sum things up. If you do install your own foam make sure it it fitted snuggly with no sharp egdes and little or no movement. Personally I've made the deciscion nver to glass over self lined ponds as IO always end up titivating it for ages before I start work.
Good luck and happy ponding. Matt
The pond in the following series of photos was self lined by my client at a cost of £150. It took him a weekend to install.
Each picture has its own description and I quote the client at the end of the pics.
Picture 1.
[img]http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg61/mat ... G_0605.jpg[/img]
The foil from the very top edge should be removed and sanded down to give a rolled edge for the grp to form to instead of the sharp edge as seen in the photo.
Picture 2.
[img]http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg61/mat ... G_0607.jpg[/img]
The fixing screw and washer should be sunk into the foam and not be protruding. The client did try to do this but the foam started to crack as he did it so he left them proud on the advice of the original grp specialist.
Picture 3.
[img]http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg61/mat ... G_0608.jpg[/img]
This gap is far too big even to be bridged by a 3mm grp system safely. It could have been filled by more foam or a filler but what a hassle that is!
Now. The foil backing on this 25mm thick foam and Kingspan foam is perfectly suitable to fibreglass onto but the bond is far better if done directly to the polyurethane underneath the foam. Technically a bond between the two materials isn't an issue as grp is not an adhesive with a guaranteed 'stick'. The fibreglass system is really a solid shell that is moulded to the structure it is applied to.
On the koi pond this foam was applied by the client the walls weren't brilliantly laid, nor was the floor and there was a lot of bounce in the foam that was installed. This could have potentially led to an unacceptable amount of movement in the grp system after it was installed. (see the pic of the gap in pic 3 for the other faults in the foam installation.) Grp should be installed against a rigid surface in a pond although a little movement is allowable. Sorry, hard to explain that one!
This foam was removed by the client and I fitted our 12mm PU foam which conformed much better to the curvature of the walls and the foor as the foam we use is more flexible that 25mm foam.
The client also used a cheap silicone on the back of the foil to hold it in place but upon removal of the screw fixings the foam actually fell off the walls because the silicone didn't fix to the foil. The foam in the pictures may have seemed cheap BUT with the entire job taking two weeks longer than required and with the colder weather drawing in, the client wanted the fish back in his pool asap and he wishes he'd have just gone with the better option in the first place.
NOTE: I have glassed over some well laid PU foam by the clients. i.e. minimal gaps that the grp can easily bridge but this is a case of it being done badly. If you are going to fix your own PU foam instead of render it must be done to a high standard with minimal gaps, minimal movement and remember the grp will follow the profile of what it is applied to and any discrepancies will show through.
I hope this helps the OP in making his choice. To sum things up. If you do install your own foam make sure it it fitted snuggly with no sharp egdes and little or no movement. Personally I've made the deciscion nver to glass over self lined ponds as IO always end up titivating it for ages before I start work.
Good luck and happy ponding. Matt
Re: Which Kingspan for insulation?
Hi Mathew and everyone else who responded.
Thanks very much for all the advice, this has given me a much better idea of what to do and what to avoid. Unfortunately I have now ordered Kingspan (on the advice of someone else who has glassed their own pond) so I will have to give it a go. However I will spend a lot of time making sure that there is no give and that there are no gaps between the panels. One advantage is that because it will be inside I'll be able to control the temperature when the various glassing layers are applied.
Thanks very much for all your help.
Regards
Jon W.
Thanks very much for all the advice, this has given me a much better idea of what to do and what to avoid. Unfortunately I have now ordered Kingspan (on the advice of someone else who has glassed their own pond) so I will have to give it a go. However I will spend a lot of time making sure that there is no give and that there are no gaps between the panels. One advantage is that because it will be inside I'll be able to control the temperature when the various glassing layers are applied.
Thanks very much for all your help.
Regards
Jon W.
Re: Which Kingspan for insulation?
One critical thing you must know about when glassing over PU foam.
GRP gives off heat as it cures. The hardening reaction is UNSTOPPABLE. You will be glassing over a foam that retains heat, unlike a render that absorbs the heat.
The grp will reach a point as you apply it (within 15 minutes or so depending on lots of other factors) where the exothermic reaction really starts to kick in so make sure you get the fibreglass not only against the foam but well rolled out with the lambswool, polyester and consolidating rollers well before you reach this point. As I say, once it starts to harden there will be nothing you can do to stop it and if it's not down properly you'll have one hell of a problem on your hands.
When glassing over rendered or concrete surface that are better conductors of heat than insulators they draw the heat out of the grp system thus buying you more time.
Have you worked with fibreglass before or am I teaching you to suck eggs? LOL.
GRP gives off heat as it cures. The hardening reaction is UNSTOPPABLE. You will be glassing over a foam that retains heat, unlike a render that absorbs the heat.
The grp will reach a point as you apply it (within 15 minutes or so depending on lots of other factors) where the exothermic reaction really starts to kick in so make sure you get the fibreglass not only against the foam but well rolled out with the lambswool, polyester and consolidating rollers well before you reach this point. As I say, once it starts to harden there will be nothing you can do to stop it and if it's not down properly you'll have one hell of a problem on your hands.
When glassing over rendered or concrete surface that are better conductors of heat than insulators they draw the heat out of the grp system thus buying you more time.
Have you worked with fibreglass before or am I teaching you to suck eggs? LOL.
Re: Which Kingspan for insulation?
Hi Mathew
I did know that there is a significant exothermic reaction but it hadn't occurred to me that the Kingspan would decrease the cure time because no heat is conducted through the pond wall. I guess that puts even more emphasis on ensuring the lining preparations is as good as possible as there won't be time correct any minor defects while glassing.
My only experience of fibreglassing is with radio controlled plane wings! Not exactly the perfect learning curve for lining a pond! However I do have mate who lives nearby who fibreglassed his 18K gal pond himself and we both know a chap who makes a living building ice cream van bodies from fibreglass - so I can get help if I feel that things might go pear shaped. Also the pond is only 2K gal growing on pond so I can spend more time to ensuring that the lining preparation for glassing is spot on.
What I might do is a trial run with the fibreglass and Kingspan - I need to create some waterproof, insulated panels to go against the wall behind my trickle tower. I could use this as practice before actually lining the pond.
Incidently what sort of ambient temperature should I aim for? Given the lack of conductivity should I have a lower temperature for the CSM application but a higher temperature when curing the flowcoat?
Thanks again for your help.
Regards
Jon
I did know that there is a significant exothermic reaction but it hadn't occurred to me that the Kingspan would decrease the cure time because no heat is conducted through the pond wall. I guess that puts even more emphasis on ensuring the lining preparations is as good as possible as there won't be time correct any minor defects while glassing.
My only experience of fibreglassing is with radio controlled plane wings! Not exactly the perfect learning curve for lining a pond! However I do have mate who lives nearby who fibreglassed his 18K gal pond himself and we both know a chap who makes a living building ice cream van bodies from fibreglass - so I can get help if I feel that things might go pear shaped. Also the pond is only 2K gal growing on pond so I can spend more time to ensuring that the lining preparation for glassing is spot on.
What I might do is a trial run with the fibreglass and Kingspan - I need to create some waterproof, insulated panels to go against the wall behind my trickle tower. I could use this as practice before actually lining the pond.
Incidently what sort of ambient temperature should I aim for? Given the lack of conductivity should I have a lower temperature for the CSM application but a higher temperature when curing the flowcoat?
Thanks again for your help.
Regards
Jon
Re: Which Kingspan for insulation?
Try to maintain a constant 15c if you can, you'll be nice and comfortable working in that temp too.
Same for the flowcoat application but be fast applying the flocoat without panicking. Get that out of the bucket quickly so the heat building up in the flowcoat doesn't send it off like a rocket ship!
All information given in good faith.
Same for the flowcoat application but be fast applying the flocoat without panicking. Get that out of the bucket quickly so the heat building up in the flowcoat doesn't send it off like a rocket ship!
All information given in good faith.
Re: Which Kingspan for insulation?
Hi Jon
The other thing is to make sure you do not mix up too much resin at once!! You can get sucked into complacancy; as you glass the tank the heat from the glass you have laid will increase the air temps, after a few batches this will gradually decrease the working time you have!
Regards
Dave
The other thing is to make sure you do not mix up too much resin at once!! You can get sucked into complacancy; as you glass the tank the heat from the glass you have laid will increase the air temps, after a few batches this will gradually decrease the working time you have!
Regards
Dave
Re: Which Kingspan for insulation?
Hi Mathew and Dave
I should be able to reach 15C without too many problems. I won't make up to much resin at one time as I will probably be doing this part of the operation on my own. I can get a couple of extra pairs of hands to put the flow coat on.
Regards
Jon
I should be able to reach 15C without too many problems. I won't make up to much resin at one time as I will probably be doing this part of the operation on my own. I can get a couple of extra pairs of hands to put the flow coat on.
Regards
Jon
Re: Which Kingspan for insulation?
Excellent thread Gents, some good advice.
We do like piccies Jon when you get a chance?
Regards,
TicToc
We do like piccies Jon when you get a chance?
Regards,
TicToc
Re: Which Kingspan for insulation?
Hi Tic Toc
I've taken a load up to this point in the build - needless to say most of them are rubbish, but I'll start posting them once I've doctored them so it's possible to see what's going on. Also I didn't want to tempt fate -last time I posted some up as I laid the base; soon became apparent that it had all gone pear shaped and had to be dug up. I wanted to make sure that I've ended up with something that at least resembles a pond before subjecting myself to any forms of public humiliation!
Cheers
Jon
I've taken a load up to this point in the build - needless to say most of them are rubbish, but I'll start posting them once I've doctored them so it's possible to see what's going on. Also I didn't want to tempt fate -last time I posted some up as I laid the base; soon became apparent that it had all gone pear shaped and had to be dug up. I wanted to make sure that I've ended up with something that at least resembles a pond before subjecting myself to any forms of public humiliation!
Cheers
Jon
Re: Which Kingspan for insulation?
Another tip for your glassing.
Wear gloves,vapour mask, long sleeves and do not smoke anywhere near the job or you are running a big risk as everything you'll be handling is flammable.
Whatever you do don't get the hardener in your eyes-you'll experience a pain like nothing on Earth if you do, so wear goggles when dispensing it. You should see the COSHH sheet on organic peroxide!
Scared yet? LOL
Is it right the tank is in your garage? Attached to the house? If so enjoy the vapours as they permeate the walls into your house!
I've pm'd you a couple more tips too.
Wear gloves,vapour mask, long sleeves and do not smoke anywhere near the job or you are running a big risk as everything you'll be handling is flammable.
Whatever you do don't get the hardener in your eyes-you'll experience a pain like nothing on Earth if you do, so wear goggles when dispensing it. You should see the COSHH sheet on organic peroxide!
Scared yet? LOL
Is it right the tank is in your garage? Attached to the house? If so enjoy the vapours as they permeate the walls into your house!
I've pm'd you a couple more tips too.