Okay peeps
Id appreciate your imput on this design. It is purely a quick draft of what I intend to do after a recent post got me thinking about using an airlift instead of a conventional pond pump.
[img]http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/GuyP/untitled.jpg[/img]
BD will be gravity to my current nexus 200 and then gravity to a block built holding/settlement tank which will hold the airlift pipes. Airlift pipes will be 1 1/2" or 2" and only about 1" above pond/filter levels to enable me to have a maximum turn over.
The two vortexes will be 2ft diameter by 3ft in height and running from the skimmer and then aquamax 5500 or higher to mid water return (or also connected to the airlifts) Not sure how Id control this to make sure most of the flow is taken from the BD.
The problems so far as I can see it is only being able to have 2000gal per hour approx through the Nexus. I could in theory, with the airlift design, have a very high turn over at low cost.
Anybody have a better ideas?
Would it be better to have one of the vortexes after the nexus with the airlifts in? and one with static K1 on the skimmer line?
What are peoples thoughts on pond gallonage that I could stretch to? Nexus200 currently running on my 3500gals. Im aiming for 4000-4500gals with a bit of filter over kill.
Just like to bounce a few ideas about, move date isnt until 10th Aug and I still dont know where in the garden the ponds going
Cheers all
New pond design (airlift)
Moderators: B.Scott, vippymini, Gazza, Manky Sanke
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vippymini
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hi there, i can see this type of design taking off. i would make up a bank of 6 airlift pipes in 1.5" pipework and test it to see how miuch water you can move. rather than a settlement tank that the pipes sit in it would be more of a pumping sump.
we will be moving home in the next couple of weeks and this design coupled with the stream flow principle are probably going to be on the new pond when it gets built...
have you the detailed drawings for the airlift pipes as it seems that the position and design of the air injectors is key to it working?
we will be moving home in the next couple of weeks and this design coupled with the stream flow principle are probably going to be on the new pond when it gets built...
have you the detailed drawings for the airlift pipes as it seems that the position and design of the air injectors is key to it working?
Air powered pond
Guy
Couple of thoughts - based on what I've been thinking about.
looking at Stuart's pond, would you be better having the BD at the opposite end of the pond to get the flow across the bottom?
Could you not also airlift from the skimmer into the vortex and gravity return - then you have no pumps at all + a built in foam fractionator?
[img]http://www.koivista.com/files/GDL/47403_Skimmer.jpg[/img]
You could also drive as much water through the skimmer as the nexus and be turning over the whole pond per hour.
Just a thought
Cheers
Gordon
Couple of thoughts - based on what I've been thinking about.
looking at Stuart's pond, would you be better having the BD at the opposite end of the pond to get the flow across the bottom?
Could you not also airlift from the skimmer into the vortex and gravity return - then you have no pumps at all + a built in foam fractionator?
[img]http://www.koivista.com/files/GDL/47403_Skimmer.jpg[/img]
You could also drive as much water through the skimmer as the nexus and be turning over the whole pond per hour.
Just a thought
Cheers
Gordon
Hi Vippymini
Are these the details you are refering to:-
[url]http://home.netcom.com/~larry_l/air_lifts.htm[/url]
http://aquanic.org/publicat/state/il-in/ces ... irlift.htm
They are the links that convinced me this is well worth looking into. My plan is to carry out some tests once we have moved to see what design works best.
Gordon, if was was going for the stream flow Id have the drains all at the other end but my pond will be designed in the traditional way with bottom drain near enough in the middle with the bottom benched towards it. Flow will be circular.
One reason I have one pump running is to have a return under water to also aid the flow. One test will be to see how much flow is created with the airlift pipes as they will all be 1" or so above pond level. The water will be falling into the pond as apposed to pushed in under water level.
Are these the details you are refering to:-
[url]http://home.netcom.com/~larry_l/air_lifts.htm[/url]
http://aquanic.org/publicat/state/il-in/ces ... irlift.htm
They are the links that convinced me this is well worth looking into. My plan is to carry out some tests once we have moved to see what design works best.
Gordon, if was was going for the stream flow Id have the drains all at the other end but my pond will be designed in the traditional way with bottom drain near enough in the middle with the bottom benched towards it. Flow will be circular.
One reason I have one pump running is to have a return under water to also aid the flow. One test will be to see how much flow is created with the airlift pipes as they will all be 1" or so above pond level. The water will be falling into the pond as apposed to pushed in under water level.
Gordon, only just seen your diagram
Problem with the airlifts being between skimmer and vortexes is that the vortexes would then be pump fed effectively and the 2nd vortex outlet would have to be above pond level.
Secondly the foam fractionator idea built in wouldnt work for the amount of water I would want to be moving. Home made ffs are finely tuned to create just the right amount of foam out of the top. Ive no idea how much water mine moves to the outlet but im sure its not that much.
However if you have a line of airlift pipes back to pond you could quite easily have an extra 1 or 2 acting as foam fractionators.
I may end up having two sumps with 6 pipes in each, one after nexus and one after vortexs
good to be discussing all the possibilies, are you designing your new pond now or are you redesigning your existing pond? I ask this as Im wondering why, as discussed earlier, why you need to move the water 1200mm?
christ, dont I waffle
Problem with the airlifts being between skimmer and vortexes is that the vortexes would then be pump fed effectively and the 2nd vortex outlet would have to be above pond level.
Secondly the foam fractionator idea built in wouldnt work for the amount of water I would want to be moving. Home made ffs are finely tuned to create just the right amount of foam out of the top. Ive no idea how much water mine moves to the outlet but im sure its not that much.
However if you have a line of airlift pipes back to pond you could quite easily have an extra 1 or 2 acting as foam fractionators.
I may end up having two sumps with 6 pipes in each, one after nexus and one after vortexs
good to be discussing all the possibilies, are you designing your new pond now or are you redesigning your existing pond? I ask this as Im wondering why, as discussed earlier, why you need to move the water 1200mm?
christ, dont I waffle
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vippymini
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- Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 10:00 pm
- Location: hertfordshire
yup there the ones...
i see that the air is injected some way up or down (depends on how you describe it) the pipe and not at the very bottom as you would think. i take it this is so you don't have to pump at high water pressures.
looking at the diagrams it doesnt give you details of how the air is introduced, i.e. air stone or just a small hole.
any ideas?
Jane
i see that the air is injected some way up or down (depends on how you describe it) the pipe and not at the very bottom as you would think. i take it this is so you don't have to pump at high water pressures.
looking at the diagrams it doesnt give you details of how the air is introduced, i.e. air stone or just a small hole.
any ideas?
Jane
quote from Larry Lunsford -
"The best method of injecting air is to use air stones. Air stones provide the smallest bubbles which result in the best lift and aeration"
BUT Im wondering about using small maxairs for this, causing much less back pressure on the air pump being used and therefor prolonging its life (extremely important when being used as a pond pump). Also creating more air/more flow
"The best method of injecting air is to use air stones. Air stones provide the smallest bubbles which result in the best lift and aeration"
BUT Im wondering about using small maxairs for this, causing much less back pressure on the air pump being used and therefor prolonging its life (extremely important when being used as a pond pump). Also creating more air/more flow
Guy,
I'm designing at the mo, with the intention of building this winter.
The garden slopes with the patio being over a metre above lawn level.
The intention is to have 3 ponds and a stream, the top pond at 200mm above patio level and the stream to filters down at the lawn level - hence 1200mm. Top pond with koi, middle with goldfish and bottom / stream with plants as a veggie filter.
Filters at the end of the stream; probably 1 static and 2 fluid k1.
May have a separate air lift from BD to waste in the top pond so the filters (or the goldfish) don't have to cope with all the solid koi waste. In which case I would use a mid water take off for the onward feeds.
Haven't decided what to do with the skimmer yet.
For your vortex
The second outlet doesn't need to be far above water level, an inch or two would do it if you have a large enough return pipe. Or you could leave it gravity fed and have the air-lift afterwards in the same way as from the nexus. That way you can have just a short length of pipe above water level - just enough to give the head to the underwater return.
Don't see a problem with an underwater gravity return, rather than it falling on the surface. I'd assumed that was what you were going to do with the Nexus return. Perhaps I just misunderstood the diagram.
There, now you have serious competition on the waffling stakes
Cheers
Gordon
I'm designing at the mo, with the intention of building this winter.
The garden slopes with the patio being over a metre above lawn level.
The intention is to have 3 ponds and a stream, the top pond at 200mm above patio level and the stream to filters down at the lawn level - hence 1200mm. Top pond with koi, middle with goldfish and bottom / stream with plants as a veggie filter.
Filters at the end of the stream; probably 1 static and 2 fluid k1.
May have a separate air lift from BD to waste in the top pond so the filters (or the goldfish) don't have to cope with all the solid koi waste. In which case I would use a mid water take off for the onward feeds.
Haven't decided what to do with the skimmer yet.
For your vortex
The second outlet doesn't need to be far above water level, an inch or two would do it if you have a large enough return pipe. Or you could leave it gravity fed and have the air-lift afterwards in the same way as from the nexus. That way you can have just a short length of pipe above water level - just enough to give the head to the underwater return.
Don't see a problem with an underwater gravity return, rather than it falling on the surface. I'd assumed that was what you were going to do with the Nexus return. Perhaps I just misunderstood the diagram.
There, now you have serious competition on the waffling stakes
Cheers
Gordon
Andy,
thats what Gordon was suggesting but Im not convinced you can get the flow needed to circulate a pond at the same time as extracting protein/doc
Gordon,
Im not convinced that the airlift will work very well submerst, i.e. outlet under pond level. By that I mean pushing water up and out against the back pressure of the pond water. Would certainly be a good test to carry out.
Heres a diagram to try and explain what I mean.
diagram 1 would work I think but how well? Will it struggle to move the water out to the pond being under the water level? need to test this
diagram 2 is more or less a foam fractionator less the foam outlet and reducer. Again to move the amount of water that is required is not going to be possible I think because the water will take the easiest route out which is out the top.
diagram 3 is basically the same as Larry Lunfords design.
[img]http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/GuyP/Airlift1.jpg[/img]
If you look at larrys diagram he runs this design feeding a water fall. All water being pushed out is above water level.
thats what Gordon was suggesting but Im not convinced you can get the flow needed to circulate a pond at the same time as extracting protein/doc
Gordon,
Im not convinced that the airlift will work very well submerst, i.e. outlet under pond level. By that I mean pushing water up and out against the back pressure of the pond water. Would certainly be a good test to carry out.
Heres a diagram to try and explain what I mean.
diagram 1 would work I think but how well? Will it struggle to move the water out to the pond being under the water level? need to test this
diagram 2 is more or less a foam fractionator less the foam outlet and reducer. Again to move the amount of water that is required is not going to be possible I think because the water will take the easiest route out which is out the top.
diagram 3 is basically the same as Larry Lunfords design.
[img]http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/GuyP/Airlift1.jpg[/img]
If you look at larrys diagram he runs this design feeding a water fall. All water being pushed out is above water level.
Guy,
not sure I quite agree that out the top is the easiest route.
Gravity will limit the height above water level, especially if there is an alternate, low(er) pressure route out.
If the outflow pipe is larger than the airlift then I would think that the water would take that route, rather than compete with gravity and continue upwards.
If you take your second example and widen the up pipe to 4" before the side take off (but still below water level) and have a larger side pipe (2") than the main uplift pipe (1.5") then you will lose much of the lift at that point. (Larry says less lift in larger pipes) The air and foam will continue upwards to the surface (where you can neck the pipe to separate the foam), but the water will try to find its own level and thus flow out of the side pipe.
(Not sure if I'm trying to convince you, or myself at this point
)
As far as flow is concerned the a quote from Stuart's "Pond breaks man"
"I tried my air uplifts on a airtech 40 and reckon I must be moving around 6-8000gallons per hour for 40 or so Watts"
Even at the bottom end of this range that is more than your intended pond volume.
Cheers
Gordon
not sure I quite agree that out the top is the easiest route.
Gravity will limit the height above water level, especially if there is an alternate, low(er) pressure route out.
If the outflow pipe is larger than the airlift then I would think that the water would take that route, rather than compete with gravity and continue upwards.
If you take your second example and widen the up pipe to 4" before the side take off (but still below water level) and have a larger side pipe (2") than the main uplift pipe (1.5") then you will lose much of the lift at that point. (Larry says less lift in larger pipes) The air and foam will continue upwards to the surface (where you can neck the pipe to separate the foam), but the water will try to find its own level and thus flow out of the side pipe.
(Not sure if I'm trying to convince you, or myself at this point
) As far as flow is concerned the a quote from Stuart's "Pond breaks man"
"I tried my air uplifts on a airtech 40 and reckon I must be moving around 6-8000gallons per hour for 40 or so Watts"
Even at the bottom end of this range that is more than your intended pond volume.
Cheers
Gordon
Hi Guy/Gordon,
The diagrams look good, cant see a problem, though i very much doubt you will be able to return the uplifted water below the surface, the push from the pond will counter the flow.
Guy, im pulling 4000gph through one of my nexus fed via a 3" side feed..
I would go with 2" uplifts pipes with a small air stone, i have tried larger airstones with no difference in performance, not sure about using the maxair stuff, you would have to give it a try. You do need fine bubbles, mine wont work without the airstones, i have tried air injectors (off my car), these will not flow enough air to do the job either. Use the small 20mmx60mm ceramic air stones, cheap as chips.....
Heres a quick vid for you taken earlier. If i leave the air running, it drops the pond by 3 foot (approx 2500g) in around 30mins...... thats using one 80l airpump.
[url=http://s51.photobucket.com/albums/f382/livi ... ce64c3.flv][img]http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f382/livi ... ce64c3.jpg[/img][/url]
The diagrams look good, cant see a problem, though i very much doubt you will be able to return the uplifted water below the surface, the push from the pond will counter the flow.
Guy, im pulling 4000gph through one of my nexus fed via a 3" side feed..
I would go with 2" uplifts pipes with a small air stone, i have tried larger airstones with no difference in performance, not sure about using the maxair stuff, you would have to give it a try. You do need fine bubbles, mine wont work without the airstones, i have tried air injectors (off my car), these will not flow enough air to do the job either. Use the small 20mmx60mm ceramic air stones, cheap as chips.....
Heres a quick vid for you taken earlier. If i leave the air running, it drops the pond by 3 foot (approx 2500g) in around 30mins......
thats using one 80l airpump.[url=http://s51.photobucket.com/albums/f382/livi ... ce64c3.flv][img]http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f382/livi ... ce64c3.jpg[/img][/url]
Thanks Al! great info as ever.
Glad Im not going mad thinking that the returns could not go under water, the filtration end of my pond should look something like this:-
[img]http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/GuyP/airlift2.jpg[/img]
Will have to find a way of making this look more attractive
Glad Im not going mad thinking that the returns could not go under water, the filtration end of my pond should look something like this:-
[img]http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/GuyP/airlift2.jpg[/img]
Will have to find a way of making this look more attractive
Sorry chaps, I still don't understand why this can't exit underwater.
If there is pressure in the downpipe then the water will flow downwards out of the pipe. That pressure is generated by creating a "head" of water.
That head needs to be no more than a few mm to create the flow.
I've tried to illustrate this in the following diagram.
[img]http://www.koivista.com/files/GDL/47621_Skimmer2.jpg[/img]
If you look at 1, pouring water into the pipe results in the creation of a small head so the water exits the bottom of the pipe.
Combine this with the air uplift in 2 and you have an airlift with a bottom return.
3 and 4 is the logically the same picture as 2.
4 is what I was trying to describe in words.
Thoughts?
Cheers
Gordon
If there is pressure in the downpipe then the water will flow downwards out of the pipe. That pressure is generated by creating a "head" of water.
That head needs to be no more than a few mm to create the flow.
I've tried to illustrate this in the following diagram.
[img]http://www.koivista.com/files/GDL/47621_Skimmer2.jpg[/img]
If you look at 1, pouring water into the pipe results in the creation of a small head so the water exits the bottom of the pipe.
Combine this with the air uplift in 2 and you have an airlift with a bottom return.
3 and 4 is the logically the same picture as 2.
4 is what I was trying to describe in words.
Thoughts?
Cheers
Gordon
Hi Gordon
what you propose works in principal as the water coming out of the airlift will always be trying to get to the same level as the filter/pond.
BUT the amount of water I want to be pushing I think the water will not be able to return via gravity quick enough.
All these questions/ideas will be tested I think
Oh yeah, got some new toys today for the temp pool that I want to test on the airlifts. I will stick some pics up
I GET THE KEYS ON FRIDAY!!!! YAY!!
[img]http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/GuyP/DSC00384.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/GuyP/DSC00376.jpg[/img]
I can feel another pond build coming on
what you propose works in principal as the water coming out of the airlift will always be trying to get to the same level as the filter/pond.
BUT the amount of water I want to be pushing I think the water will not be able to return via gravity quick enough.
All these questions/ideas will be tested I think
Oh yeah, got some new toys today for the temp pool that I want to test on the airlifts. I will stick some pics up
I GET THE KEYS ON FRIDAY!!!! YAY!!
[img]http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/GuyP/DSC00384.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/GuyP/DSC00376.jpg[/img]
I can feel another pond build coming on