Hi all,
I rekon it must be almost a year now since there was a fair bit of RO disscusion.
I am wondering to those that changed or are running,have they noticed any diffence at all???
Especially to the way there koi have developed,Grown,Injuries that have cleared up,koi appetites,water quality,
Was it worth it?? Did you achieve what you wanted?? Would you recomend it ???
Graham
To Those Running RO
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Bob Hart
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Graham,
I've been using mine for under a year now, reduced TDS from 280 to 130 and have noticed the following:
Negatives or comments
If you dont change the cartridges quickly enough, or flush them properly, you end up having to buy new membranes! Another £130.
You have to be checking the TDS and KH regularly and calibrating the constant running meters as well.
Had one transformer burn out and one pump as well, so periods without the pump means little is happing with regards to output.
The unit condensates a lot in the winter, due to the water temperature going through the unit being lower than the air in my shed. Even in the Summer it 'drips' very well.
When draining filter chambers, or washing the Easy on a weekly basis, it takes nearly all week to refill the pond. This has meant that at times I've had to turn off a pump, reducing the throughput of the filter, due to the drop in filter levels.
Positives
Injuries and problems with 'seem' less and certainly heal quicker, some even on their own.
I'm watching for Shimmie reduction on a particularly nice Kohaku. Not sure on the outcome as yet, but 'perhaps' there are less than previously. Will have to wait until the Spring/Summer to have a good look.
Conclusions
Currently unknown in reality. Will continue to experiment further this year.
I've been using mine for under a year now, reduced TDS from 280 to 130 and have noticed the following:
Negatives or comments
If you dont change the cartridges quickly enough, or flush them properly, you end up having to buy new membranes! Another £130.
You have to be checking the TDS and KH regularly and calibrating the constant running meters as well.
Had one transformer burn out and one pump as well, so periods without the pump means little is happing with regards to output.
The unit condensates a lot in the winter, due to the water temperature going through the unit being lower than the air in my shed. Even in the Summer it 'drips' very well.
When draining filter chambers, or washing the Easy on a weekly basis, it takes nearly all week to refill the pond. This has meant that at times I've had to turn off a pump, reducing the throughput of the filter, due to the drop in filter levels.
Positives
Injuries and problems with 'seem' less and certainly heal quicker, some even on their own.
I'm watching for Shimmie reduction on a particularly nice Kohaku. Not sure on the outcome as yet, but 'perhaps' there are less than previously. Will have to wait until the Spring/Summer to have a good look.
Conclusions
Currently unknown in reality. Will continue to experiment further this year.
The responses so far are pretty much what I would have predicted, which is unfortunate, because the actual potential is worth far more than that.
In the interest of modesty I have to assume I got lucky, because my perspective on the results is so far away from the average to date it's not on the same song sheet.
But first I would like to plead mitigation on behalf of some fellow koi keepers, in that the vast majority of incompetant morons selling RO systems are to blame for many of the poor results.
My own particular moron paraded baboon like under the psuedonym of Ro-man, displaying his ego Mondays through Sundays on his website or by phone. The last time I saw an unfounded ego this big was when Billy Graham guested at a Cliff Richard concert, trust me this guy only pauses for breath once a week.
I have learned more about RO in 2 years than the vast majority of these self proclaimed experts will ever know. I find myself wondering what they did before RO, Aromatherapy and Homeothapy probably.
In reality RO has so much to offer to a large percentage of koi keepers I find it difficult to explain without sounding evangelistic myself.
I have medium hard water, natural PH is 8.5 +, natural GH is around 14 to 18, natural KH is in the region of 10 to 12, TDS about 340, ORP around 180. That is a next to tragic prescription for koi water, but most will tell you it's acceptable, to which I can only ask what it is they want from koi? And whatever the answer they will have to moderate their ambitions, because it's unlikely they'll achieve them in such water.
So let's consider some of the practical implications of such water on our koi. To do this we need to know the type of water Koi originate from, as "the norm" is very important. For example we as humans have certain prerequisites when it comes to our environment, change our own "normal" environment by just 1% and we begin to suffer, 2% and we begin the process known as dying, beyond that it ceases to matter. Koi may I ask differ how? And yet we have a succession of would be experts trying to convince us that "they'll adjust", well of course they will, they're only fish. Of course this all bears no relation to the fact that most of Britain has crap water unsuited to koi, and the fact if we educate would be keepers accordingly the market may be reduced.
My only observation on this matter is that I have yet to see anyone with sufficient resources succumbing to this hyperbole.
Koi are unused to water even 50% as crap as ours, so by comparison to human environmental stability standards and requirements would be within their rights to die immediately in our water. The change from water in Japan to ours is an order of magnitude, many hundred times worse in every respect from the koi's perspective. It speaks volumes for Koi that they withstand the drastic changes in water they are forcibly subjected to on a daily basis.
Unfortunately it's to most people's advantage to overlook this fact, as to do so cuts costs and improves profit potential, and please save the outrage for later, I've heard it all before.
The simple fact is numerous keepers forego any attempt at keeping koi in water optimised for their requirements, and numerous dealers condone it, all in the interests of saving or making money.
Koi actually LIKE softer water than is available in most of the UK, it's what they are used to, it's their "natural environment". Softer, a simple word, but in this case far more than the simple meaning infers to the innocent. From the koi's perspective it also means cleaner, less impurities in the form of unwanted minerals and salts, higher in oxygen content, lower in unwanted bacteria etc. The scientific effects and reactions are too complex to relate in a simple post response, but I know a few will be aware of them.
So, the important question might be, How can I reduce if not remove this problem?
Easy, RO system.
Not so easy is the fact that to most it's new technology, which requires support until the knowledge is commoditised, and there's the problem. If you cannot afford or justify buying top brand equipment from a market leading company, (I include myself here) you are in for a difficult ride. As with most technology, if your knowledge is sufficient, supplier and even equipment quality can be compromised, unfortunately many have had bad experiences because they compromised with inadequate knowledge and then got poor support.
I was fortunate in that my experience allowed me to achieve good results from RO, my fish are consequently benefitting from water more akin to their expectations. I am benefitting from a more relaxed, rewarding experience from my koi keeping, my family are benefitting from the extra time I can return to the family which previously was consumed by looking after koi.
I now expend no or miniscule time keeping my water in good condition, my koi have forgotten what illness is and are revelling in the water. I spend nothing on water treatments, I spend nothing on medications, indeed most of my stock of treatments is out of date and has to be replaced annually without being opened.
Whilst my water is kept in this optimum condition I have no BW, Algae or other malady's, none of the usual bacterial problems etc, not in over two years since I adopted RO. My fish are hungry 365 days per year and grow very well, I can leave them in the hands of my children for weeks at a time.
All of this I attribute to the water, the koi are at their peak as a result of my water keeping, nothing else has such a dramatic effect, it allows them to withstand any problems which may arise more readily.
I must away to call a neighbour in Spain before he goes to bed, sorry for the rant! I just get so frustrated that so many keepers appear to me to be missing the most incrediblly important adjunct to their hobby for years.
Chi
In the interest of modesty I have to assume I got lucky, because my perspective on the results is so far away from the average to date it's not on the same song sheet.
But first I would like to plead mitigation on behalf of some fellow koi keepers, in that the vast majority of incompetant morons selling RO systems are to blame for many of the poor results.
My own particular moron paraded baboon like under the psuedonym of Ro-man, displaying his ego Mondays through Sundays on his website or by phone. The last time I saw an unfounded ego this big was when Billy Graham guested at a Cliff Richard concert, trust me this guy only pauses for breath once a week.
I have learned more about RO in 2 years than the vast majority of these self proclaimed experts will ever know. I find myself wondering what they did before RO, Aromatherapy and Homeothapy probably.
In reality RO has so much to offer to a large percentage of koi keepers I find it difficult to explain without sounding evangelistic myself.
I have medium hard water, natural PH is 8.5 +, natural GH is around 14 to 18, natural KH is in the region of 10 to 12, TDS about 340, ORP around 180. That is a next to tragic prescription for koi water, but most will tell you it's acceptable, to which I can only ask what it is they want from koi? And whatever the answer they will have to moderate their ambitions, because it's unlikely they'll achieve them in such water.
So let's consider some of the practical implications of such water on our koi. To do this we need to know the type of water Koi originate from, as "the norm" is very important. For example we as humans have certain prerequisites when it comes to our environment, change our own "normal" environment by just 1% and we begin to suffer, 2% and we begin the process known as dying, beyond that it ceases to matter. Koi may I ask differ how? And yet we have a succession of would be experts trying to convince us that "they'll adjust", well of course they will, they're only fish. Of course this all bears no relation to the fact that most of Britain has crap water unsuited to koi, and the fact if we educate would be keepers accordingly the market may be reduced.
My only observation on this matter is that I have yet to see anyone with sufficient resources succumbing to this hyperbole.
Koi are unused to water even 50% as crap as ours, so by comparison to human environmental stability standards and requirements would be within their rights to die immediately in our water. The change from water in Japan to ours is an order of magnitude, many hundred times worse in every respect from the koi's perspective. It speaks volumes for Koi that they withstand the drastic changes in water they are forcibly subjected to on a daily basis.
Unfortunately it's to most people's advantage to overlook this fact, as to do so cuts costs and improves profit potential, and please save the outrage for later, I've heard it all before.
The simple fact is numerous keepers forego any attempt at keeping koi in water optimised for their requirements, and numerous dealers condone it, all in the interests of saving or making money.
Koi actually LIKE softer water than is available in most of the UK, it's what they are used to, it's their "natural environment". Softer, a simple word, but in this case far more than the simple meaning infers to the innocent. From the koi's perspective it also means cleaner, less impurities in the form of unwanted minerals and salts, higher in oxygen content, lower in unwanted bacteria etc. The scientific effects and reactions are too complex to relate in a simple post response, but I know a few will be aware of them.
So, the important question might be, How can I reduce if not remove this problem?
Easy, RO system.
Not so easy is the fact that to most it's new technology, which requires support until the knowledge is commoditised, and there's the problem. If you cannot afford or justify buying top brand equipment from a market leading company, (I include myself here) you are in for a difficult ride. As with most technology, if your knowledge is sufficient, supplier and even equipment quality can be compromised, unfortunately many have had bad experiences because they compromised with inadequate knowledge and then got poor support.
I was fortunate in that my experience allowed me to achieve good results from RO, my fish are consequently benefitting from water more akin to their expectations. I am benefitting from a more relaxed, rewarding experience from my koi keeping, my family are benefitting from the extra time I can return to the family which previously was consumed by looking after koi.
I now expend no or miniscule time keeping my water in good condition, my koi have forgotten what illness is and are revelling in the water. I spend nothing on water treatments, I spend nothing on medications, indeed most of my stock of treatments is out of date and has to be replaced annually without being opened.
Whilst my water is kept in this optimum condition I have no BW, Algae or other malady's, none of the usual bacterial problems etc, not in over two years since I adopted RO. My fish are hungry 365 days per year and grow very well, I can leave them in the hands of my children for weeks at a time.
All of this I attribute to the water, the koi are at their peak as a result of my water keeping, nothing else has such a dramatic effect, it allows them to withstand any problems which may arise more readily.
I must away to call a neighbour in Spain before he goes to bed, sorry for the rant! I just get so frustrated that so many keepers appear to me to be missing the most incrediblly important adjunct to their hobby for years.
Chi
I feel the need to say my 2p's worth here, although i do not use R.O.
I am fortunate enough to have what i consider a good water supply. For the record, these results do vary according to the seasons hence the difference in readings, ph 7.4 - 7.7, kh 1 -2, gh 4, tds 70 - 110, orp 330-370.
The pond currently runs ph-7.55 kh-1 gh-4 tds 90 orp 360.
Like Chi, i have never had a problem with any injuries that dont fix on their own accord, i also have the cupboard full of unused meds.
A couple of months back i had one of my sanke lifted out of the pond in a mating/chasing session, this resulted in 3 lost scales and 2 damaged/lifted ones, no action was taken, within a week the lifted scales returned to normal and the others have grown back. The colouration hasnt returned just yet but its well on its way.
I have no doubts that this is down to soft water, i do not get any ph swings with running it like this, i refuse to add anything to the pond other than water and food, i have run this pond and the previous ones before in exactly the same way, going on 20 odd years now. It works for me and my koi just fine.
I am guiltly of trying certain clays etc, the info wasnt available at that time, so i had to learn/teach myself, i learned my koi dont like it.
This is only my opinion, it may not be everyones cup of tea, i know a few more keepers up this way with the same water and similar parametres, most have similar results and experiences.
If i didnt have this water available, i would most definatly make my own up with R.O.
I am fortunate enough to have what i consider a good water supply. For the record, these results do vary according to the seasons hence the difference in readings, ph 7.4 - 7.7, kh 1 -2, gh 4, tds 70 - 110, orp 330-370.
The pond currently runs ph-7.55 kh-1 gh-4 tds 90 orp 360.
Like Chi, i have never had a problem with any injuries that dont fix on their own accord, i also have the cupboard full of unused meds.
A couple of months back i had one of my sanke lifted out of the pond in a mating/chasing session, this resulted in 3 lost scales and 2 damaged/lifted ones, no action was taken, within a week the lifted scales returned to normal and the others have grown back. The colouration hasnt returned just yet but its well on its way.
I have no doubts that this is down to soft water, i do not get any ph swings with running it like this, i refuse to add anything to the pond other than water and food, i have run this pond and the previous ones before in exactly the same way, going on 20 odd years now. It works for me and my koi just fine.
I am guiltly of trying certain clays etc, the info wasnt available at that time, so i had to learn/teach myself, i learned my koi dont like it.
This is only my opinion, it may not be everyones cup of tea, i know a few more keepers up this way with the same water and similar parametres, most have similar results and experiences.
If i didnt have this water available, i would most definatly make my own up with R.O.
-
boogatee
- Bull Shark
- Posts: 544
- Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:06 pm
- Location: just north of the home of the 2012 Olympics
Chi, I'm sorry I don't see the posts that would have caused you to want to say, or even think of saying "that this could be my last post on this forum". Nor have I read where anyone on this thread has put down the benefits of RO. I think most of us like you agree that being able to manage water to the Nth degree is an asset not a liability.
My comments revolved around the production rate of the system that I bought. Mr Hart's was essentially about maintenance, condensation and production. Dave A is selling his as it's not for him.
My venture into RO was 9 days and possibly 200 gallons of TDS 10 - 15 water - are you suggesting that I should have seen a change in my koi in that time?
Like you I've not treated a fish in over two years - well I do have a Maduroh Showa, that likes blowing bubbles, which caused me a moments panic in the summer and I unnecessarily used some MG&F - but aside from that moment of madness and my love for Klear and Pro100, nothing.
My Hi Utsuri was damaged whilst taking her out of the pond - when the liner failed. She has only seen water temps above 11.1 degs for 2 weeks since that time and the damage is completly healed.
Cuttlebrook's comment here : http://www.koiquest.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.p ... c&start=15 is also very interesting.
My comments revolved around the production rate of the system that I bought. Mr Hart's was essentially about maintenance, condensation and production. Dave A is selling his as it's not for him.
My venture into RO was 9 days and possibly 200 gallons of TDS 10 - 15 water - are you suggesting that I should have seen a change in my koi in that time?
Like you I've not treated a fish in over two years - well I do have a Maduroh Showa, that likes blowing bubbles, which caused me a moments panic in the summer and I unnecessarily used some MG&F - but aside from that moment of madness and my love for Klear and Pro100, nothing.
My Hi Utsuri was damaged whilst taking her out of the pond - when the liner failed. She has only seen water temps above 11.1 degs for 2 weeks since that time and the damage is completly healed.
Cuttlebrook's comment here : http://www.koiquest.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.p ... c&start=15 is also very interesting.
Chris, I was a little the worse for a bottle of fine wine, and I did expect more flack for expressing such strong bias towards RO. Especially as I have previously been called elitist for promoting such an expensive addition to koi ponds.
I have edited the post by removing my pessimistic opener, thank you for the poke in the head!
Interesting thread the one you linked to, another example of how diverse the subject is. It also highlights what for me is a major difference in perspective, for example, I have never at anytime considered the results of softer water etc on koi from a visual aspect as being important. I have been aware of those possibilities for quite a few years, the idea of switching koi from soft to hard water for shows etc has been muted for a long time. For me it has been the huge difference in health and attitude generally which has dominated my efforts throughout. Anything else was a bonus, at this time not having considered that aspect (visual) I have not formed any decisions, but I do have a few pic's of some fish at the time of aquisition, so one day will compare. But it's not actually that simple is it, because the koi change anyway, so I would really have to look for changes in the shorter term, and I'm not sure I'll be good at that.
I tend to focus on a specific aspect and work at until I resolve the matter, at least to my satisfaction. Unfortunately unlike some keepers, I have a problem with recognising there may be other ways besides my own which could be effective! From time to time this can cause problems in that I can be a little too emphatic in expounding my findings and beliefs! Of course it's perfectly possible to keep good healthy Koi without the benefits of soft water, but I now believe it's harder, no pun intended.
My mission though has the best possible motives, I truly believe the majority of keepers would realise huge benefits from RO, (or rather soft water) if only they had good support through the early stages. In my experience this has not been forthcoming from the companies I have tried, though I'm sure there are other suppliers who would have performed better in the support department. Consequently it took more time and effort for me to achieve results, and time is money so they tell me. But my main beef with RO has always been in two areas, lack of quality support being prime and the inflated cost of consumables another. Fortunately the costs will reduce over time as usage of the product becomes commonplace, but it will be a while before it's affordable to the majority.
And there goes the other problem, it's very difficult for those who do not wish to increase their expenditure to react calmly to the idea that RO is necessary in hard water areas. It's almost like I'm telling them they are abusing their koi by keeping them in hard water, which can inflame the more sensitive keepers. My real point though is simply to cause keepers to recognise the benefits, RO maybe the direct route to soft water but awareness can allow others to look for alternatives. I am not at this time aware of any, but hopefully if enough keepers are convinced of the benefits someone may find an alternative route, provocation can be a useful motivator.
I do take the points you raise as regards to the equipment, most of the problems with which could have been resolved had the supplier had the intelligence to support efficiently. It's very difficult when one has such problems with equipment when the running costs are so high, and in Bob's case as with others there have been concerns with the waste water levels. I am currently about to give that some consideration, not sure where I'll start or end on that one but it has to be looked at. I'm sure there's a new technology answer out there somewhere.
The production rate is something I had a blip with but resolved with a little effort, and the volume demand reduces considerably once the water in the pond is brought to the required standards. Ongoing output requirement is IMHO very low, it's the initial turnaround which requires far more than the systems wanted to give. In hindsight I think a much longer transition period would have sufficed, I myself was in a hurry, as I observed were most who took up the RO baton. My primary agravation were the tongue in cheek production figures, which caused me to lose sight of the real target for a while. I was so concerned with the fact I produced less than 50% of the claimed output that I let myself become distracted, instead of simply accepting it and getting on with the job. Had I done that I would have realised sooner that even at those output rates I could easily get the job done, and going forward demand would fall considerably anyway!
Ultimately I am totally sold on the benefits, but for those still considering the RO route do ask for recommendations before spending your money, not all suppliers are equal.
Chi
I have edited the post by removing my pessimistic opener, thank you for the poke in the head!
Interesting thread the one you linked to, another example of how diverse the subject is. It also highlights what for me is a major difference in perspective, for example, I have never at anytime considered the results of softer water etc on koi from a visual aspect as being important. I have been aware of those possibilities for quite a few years, the idea of switching koi from soft to hard water for shows etc has been muted for a long time. For me it has been the huge difference in health and attitude generally which has dominated my efforts throughout. Anything else was a bonus, at this time not having considered that aspect (visual) I have not formed any decisions, but I do have a few pic's of some fish at the time of aquisition, so one day will compare. But it's not actually that simple is it, because the koi change anyway, so I would really have to look for changes in the shorter term, and I'm not sure I'll be good at that.
I tend to focus on a specific aspect and work at until I resolve the matter, at least to my satisfaction. Unfortunately unlike some keepers, I have a problem with recognising there may be other ways besides my own which could be effective! From time to time this can cause problems in that I can be a little too emphatic in expounding my findings and beliefs! Of course it's perfectly possible to keep good healthy Koi without the benefits of soft water, but I now believe it's harder, no pun intended.
My mission though has the best possible motives, I truly believe the majority of keepers would realise huge benefits from RO, (or rather soft water) if only they had good support through the early stages. In my experience this has not been forthcoming from the companies I have tried, though I'm sure there are other suppliers who would have performed better in the support department. Consequently it took more time and effort for me to achieve results, and time is money so they tell me. But my main beef with RO has always been in two areas, lack of quality support being prime and the inflated cost of consumables another. Fortunately the costs will reduce over time as usage of the product becomes commonplace, but it will be a while before it's affordable to the majority.
And there goes the other problem, it's very difficult for those who do not wish to increase their expenditure to react calmly to the idea that RO is necessary in hard water areas. It's almost like I'm telling them they are abusing their koi by keeping them in hard water, which can inflame the more sensitive keepers. My real point though is simply to cause keepers to recognise the benefits, RO maybe the direct route to soft water but awareness can allow others to look for alternatives. I am not at this time aware of any, but hopefully if enough keepers are convinced of the benefits someone may find an alternative route, provocation can be a useful motivator.
I do take the points you raise as regards to the equipment, most of the problems with which could have been resolved had the supplier had the intelligence to support efficiently. It's very difficult when one has such problems with equipment when the running costs are so high, and in Bob's case as with others there have been concerns with the waste water levels. I am currently about to give that some consideration, not sure where I'll start or end on that one but it has to be looked at. I'm sure there's a new technology answer out there somewhere.
The production rate is something I had a blip with but resolved with a little effort, and the volume demand reduces considerably once the water in the pond is brought to the required standards. Ongoing output requirement is IMHO very low, it's the initial turnaround which requires far more than the systems wanted to give. In hindsight I think a much longer transition period would have sufficed, I myself was in a hurry, as I observed were most who took up the RO baton. My primary agravation were the tongue in cheek production figures, which caused me to lose sight of the real target for a while. I was so concerned with the fact I produced less than 50% of the claimed output that I let myself become distracted, instead of simply accepting it and getting on with the job. Had I done that I would have realised sooner that even at those output rates I could easily get the job done, and going forward demand would fall considerably anyway!
Ultimately I am totally sold on the benefits, but for those still considering the RO route do ask for recommendations before spending your money, not all suppliers are equal.
Chi
Unfortunately the only company I have ever spoken to who seem to have clue was www.drydenaqua.com, but they do not claim to have koi specific knowledge. I have also heard good things of a company called all clear? Run by a lady of some repute in the koi world I believe, but regardless I think ponders should focus on suppliers who understand their needs, companies like Ro-man are simply hoovers hoping to suck in a few suckers to pay for their holidays. Any claim they make to having knowledge of koi is exaggerrated, as is their claim re client support, it's the worst I have experienced in my 59 years on the planet, abyssmal doesn't begin to describe it so avoid them like the plague.
I think now that there is a fabulous opening for a company with good koi knowledge to step into the RO breach. There will be good growth in the sector over the next few years, were I but 10 years younger I would set up a supply line myself.
I think that even someone on this forum who has gained experience of RO recently could do worse than set up a supply line, it has huge potential. Unfortunately I'm looking to retire, not set up yet another business!
Chi
I think now that there is a fabulous opening for a company with good koi knowledge to step into the RO breach. There will be good growth in the sector over the next few years, were I but 10 years younger I would set up a supply line myself.
I think that even someone on this forum who has gained experience of RO recently could do worse than set up a supply line, it has huge potential. Unfortunately I'm looking to retire, not set up yet another business!
Chi
There is a Koi Dealer near Swindon called Kingdom Koi , A nice chap Called Craig . He just happens to own another company that makes commercial R/O systems! One of R/o problems is the waste water, they have developed an r/o system that has no waste water! but it isnt cheap! Another is the amount of cheap r/o's on the market that actually dont work properly.
He also teaches people exactly what R/o is etc and how to use them to NVQ levels. I am sure if someone was interested in going this way he wouldnt turn you away as he is a wealth of knowledge on this subject. hos contact details are on his web site which is
www.kingdomkoi.co.uk
He also teaches people exactly what R/o is etc and how to use them to NVQ levels. I am sure if someone was interested in going this way he wouldnt turn you away as he is a wealth of knowledge on this subject. hos contact details are on his web site which is
www.kingdomkoi.co.uk