I already have some baby 4" Tench in the QT and can't find a lot of info on them with salt ...... will they be ok with the salt treatment?
Any advice would be appreciated ....
Is 0.9ppt salt safe to use with Tench?
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Is 0.9ppt salt safe to use with Tench?
Hi all 1st post, I was recommended this forum from the Extreme Koi forum ... have stubborn Costia here ... 3x PP at high dose has not worked so I'm going to put all the fish in a QT with 0.9ppt salt for 5days and nuke the pond with a really high dose of PP.
I already have some baby 4" Tench in the QT and can't find a lot of info on them with salt ...... will they be ok with the salt treatment?
Any advice would be appreciated ....
I already have some baby 4" Tench in the QT and can't find a lot of info on them with salt ...... will they be ok with the salt treatment?
Any advice would be appreciated ....
Re: Is 0.9ppt salt safe to use with Tench?
hi Trace
i presume you mean 3 treatments of PP ? so my next question is what do you call a high dose?
duncan
i presume you mean 3 treatments of PP ? so my next question is what do you call a high dose?
duncan
Re: Is 0.9ppt salt safe to use with Tench?
Hi Duncan, sorry for lack of info was in a panic earlier ... 2 treatments of 1.75ppm for 6 hrs then 5 days later 2ppm for 4 ... re-dosing when the water went brown/yellow.
I've been keeping fish for a few years now and am quite experienced at dealing with most things but not Costia as never had it before.
I work hard at my water chemistry and it is consistently good: pH 7.8 winter, 8.2 summer, 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrite, 0 Nitrate, 6 dKH with Bicarb as we have very soft water <1 dKH from tap (API test kit), many times over-filtered and have plenty of aeration with airlift return, fluid bio-filter and aerated bottom drain. I also add more airstones when treating.
This seems to have been a follow up outbreak after first treating the fish twice with Flubenol at 1g/89gallons for gill and body flukes which worked well.
I have koi, goldfish and have some 4" tench in separate QT which I was going to add to pond when large enough not to get sucked down the BD.
Anyway, the Costia is still there ... Koi are flashing lazily now and again but still strong and no sign of bacterial fin or body problems.
Some of the Goldfish are in a terrible state ... 3 dead and a couple in real trouble with advanced fin rot (which I've been treating topically with PP solution).
The main dilemma I have at the moment is Jumbo (a sixteen year old goldie thats a year older than my oldest child so a major family pet that the kids have always known) is on his last legs and I don't think he will take another "hard" treatment of any sort which is why I was going to attempt salt with all the fish in a separate treatment vat and Nuke the pond and plumbing with a disinfecting dose of PP. I've had great success with salt and heat for ulcers etc.
So cleared the QT and salted it to only about 0.05% to start with (mature filter and loads of air) and put Jumbo in ..... within a few seconds he turned belly up .... so I took him back to the main pond and a few minutes at the return brought him back round but he is hardly able to swim and is now just head down and not moving.
The kids are in right old state .... and never having dealt with Costia before and him going belly up almost immediately I'm lost now myself for where to go next ....
Is there anything else I can do immediately for Jumbo? ......................... and then the rest of them a.s.a.p. after that .... any help would be very well appreciated.
I've been keeping fish for a few years now and am quite experienced at dealing with most things but not Costia as never had it before.
I work hard at my water chemistry and it is consistently good: pH 7.8 winter, 8.2 summer, 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrite, 0 Nitrate, 6 dKH with Bicarb as we have very soft water <1 dKH from tap (API test kit), many times over-filtered and have plenty of aeration with airlift return, fluid bio-filter and aerated bottom drain. I also add more airstones when treating.
This seems to have been a follow up outbreak after first treating the fish twice with Flubenol at 1g/89gallons for gill and body flukes which worked well.
I have koi, goldfish and have some 4" tench in separate QT which I was going to add to pond when large enough not to get sucked down the BD.
Anyway, the Costia is still there ... Koi are flashing lazily now and again but still strong and no sign of bacterial fin or body problems.
Some of the Goldfish are in a terrible state ... 3 dead and a couple in real trouble with advanced fin rot (which I've been treating topically with PP solution).
The main dilemma I have at the moment is Jumbo (a sixteen year old goldie thats a year older than my oldest child so a major family pet that the kids have always known) is on his last legs and I don't think he will take another "hard" treatment of any sort which is why I was going to attempt salt with all the fish in a separate treatment vat and Nuke the pond and plumbing with a disinfecting dose of PP. I've had great success with salt and heat for ulcers etc.
So cleared the QT and salted it to only about 0.05% to start with (mature filter and loads of air) and put Jumbo in ..... within a few seconds he turned belly up .... so I took him back to the main pond and a few minutes at the return brought him back round but he is hardly able to swim and is now just head down and not moving.
The kids are in right old state .... and never having dealt with Costia before and him going belly up almost immediately I'm lost now myself for where to go next ....
Is there anything else I can do immediately for Jumbo? ......................... and then the rest of them a.s.a.p. after that .... any help would be very well appreciated.
Re: Is 0.9ppt salt safe to use with Tench?
Trace
first off 0.05% is no salt at all! some tap supplies are not far off that so I'm at a loss as to why jumbo baulked at that level
next I've heard of this before goldfish breaking apart after exposure to flubenol there is not rational explanation for it as its safe with most delicate and susceptible species but i can assure you you are not the first to experience losses of goldfish after such a treatment which is why I don't really recommend mixing species of fish
last costia: Most fish carry costia as they do white spot, people think costia comes all of a sudden from nowhere, not so they were there all along, these two have a natural life cycle they live and die as with normal things but with a fish that has a strong immune system this is normally not a problem as they are kept in check. however when the immune system is compromised costia quickly take advantage and exploit the situation to the maximum . therefore it follows that costia only pick on a weak fish or fishes, its possible that this disease is only effecting one or two fish therefore identifying the fish effected and moving them to quarantine for treatment is paramount other wise the alternative involves treating the whole pond which will hammer the fish and filters and create more problem longer term
that said, I would recommend my ICC treatment which is malachite green based but contains not formaldehyde so is safe for delicate species
you use this at 25ml to 500 uk gallons every other day till costia, whitespot or chillo has gone and can be used with salt in fact works better with salt
any question just shout up
Duncan
first off 0.05% is no salt at all! some tap supplies are not far off that so I'm at a loss as to why jumbo baulked at that level
next I've heard of this before goldfish breaking apart after exposure to flubenol there is not rational explanation for it as its safe with most delicate and susceptible species but i can assure you you are not the first to experience losses of goldfish after such a treatment which is why I don't really recommend mixing species of fish
last costia: Most fish carry costia as they do white spot, people think costia comes all of a sudden from nowhere, not so they were there all along, these two have a natural life cycle they live and die as with normal things but with a fish that has a strong immune system this is normally not a problem as they are kept in check. however when the immune system is compromised costia quickly take advantage and exploit the situation to the maximum . therefore it follows that costia only pick on a weak fish or fishes, its possible that this disease is only effecting one or two fish therefore identifying the fish effected and moving them to quarantine for treatment is paramount other wise the alternative involves treating the whole pond which will hammer the fish and filters and create more problem longer term
that said, I would recommend my ICC treatment which is malachite green based but contains not formaldehyde so is safe for delicate species
you use this at 25ml to 500 uk gallons every other day till costia, whitespot or chillo has gone and can be used with salt in fact works better with salt
any question just shout up
Duncan
Re: Is 0.9ppt salt safe to use with Tench?
Yes I know how little it was I was just going to increase very slowly as Jumbo was in such a weak state ... he was probably going belly up because of being too weak to escape the current and amount of aeration in the QT tank .... not surprisingly he didn't make it as he was in such a bad way.
Anyway with the panic over had more time to scrape all the fish and after closely checking over all mucus samples (taken from along the operculum edge, belly to cloaca and sides) I found no further parasites .... except for one fish which had something very small moving (even at 800x couldn't get a positive ID on it) but I have a feeling it could have been two very small/young Costia by the movement.
It's interesting what you say about Costia always being present ... I have heard before that some believe that Costia and other parasites are always present in a fishes cloaca but on a lot of forums people debate about how Costia has got to their pond e.g. slugs falling in or bird droppings etc, etc. and talk of their pond being "clear" of Costia after successful treatment.
Do you think that no further treatment of the pond is required then at the moment .... even if one of the fish might (although not confirmed as mentioned above) still have a couple on it?
On most forums it seems that finding even one Costia in a barrage of scrapes is dealt with immediate heavy duty whole pond treatment.
Also although it may not be related can I also ask your opinion of whether "Lunking" (quickly breaching the surface then diving and blowing air out gills) is a good/bad indication of anything?
... a few of my fish started doing this regularly for the first time this year even when in apparent perfect health with optimum water chemistry. My water is only 4.5 feet deep so not a deep pond and the only difference is this year it has an airlift return that uses very fine bubbles so will be increasing o2 saturation. It's something I've been watching for a while now and trying to gather info on as there doesn't seem to be a definitive explanation for why fish do it and the opinions I've had are diverse from it being "an indication of parasite infestation" to "they do it for fun" .... ..... I'd be interested in what you think with all the experience you've had.
Thanks for your time Duncan ...
*later addition* ..... just been to pond and one of the koi that tested clear yesterday on scrapes is flashing madly at the walls and drain .... so I'm off to scrape again ...
Anyway with the panic over had more time to scrape all the fish and after closely checking over all mucus samples (taken from along the operculum edge, belly to cloaca and sides) I found no further parasites .... except for one fish which had something very small moving (even at 800x couldn't get a positive ID on it) but I have a feeling it could have been two very small/young Costia by the movement.
It's interesting what you say about Costia always being present ... I have heard before that some believe that Costia and other parasites are always present in a fishes cloaca but on a lot of forums people debate about how Costia has got to their pond e.g. slugs falling in or bird droppings etc, etc. and talk of their pond being "clear" of Costia after successful treatment.
Do you think that no further treatment of the pond is required then at the moment .... even if one of the fish might (although not confirmed as mentioned above) still have a couple on it?
On most forums it seems that finding even one Costia in a barrage of scrapes is dealt with immediate heavy duty whole pond treatment.
Also although it may not be related can I also ask your opinion of whether "Lunking" (quickly breaching the surface then diving and blowing air out gills) is a good/bad indication of anything?
... a few of my fish started doing this regularly for the first time this year even when in apparent perfect health with optimum water chemistry. My water is only 4.5 feet deep so not a deep pond and the only difference is this year it has an airlift return that uses very fine bubbles so will be increasing o2 saturation. It's something I've been watching for a while now and trying to gather info on as there doesn't seem to be a definitive explanation for why fish do it and the opinions I've had are diverse from it being "an indication of parasite infestation" to "they do it for fun" ....
..... I'd be interested in what you think with all the experience you've had.Thanks for your time Duncan ...
*later addition* ..... just been to pond and one of the koi that tested clear yesterday on scrapes is flashing madly at the walls and drain .... so I'm off to scrape again ...
Re: Is 0.9ppt salt safe to use with Tench?
*Follow up to previous post*
Very carefully examined scrape covering both operculum edges, underside from jaw along belly and cloaca and both sides was clear @ 200x mag.
Water is pH 8 - 8.2, Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0, dKH 4 ...... so the only difference is a tiny drop in pH and KH dropping from 6 to 4.
Fish has stopped flashing now but was giving itself a good thrashing earlier .....
The other thing I have noticed for the first time this year is black/very dark purple-ish slimy algae (that peels off in huge sheets) instead of the previous green fibrous fuzzy stuff if that makes any difference ....
Very carefully examined scrape covering both operculum edges, underside from jaw along belly and cloaca and both sides was clear @ 200x mag.
Water is pH 8 - 8.2, Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0, dKH 4 ...... so the only difference is a tiny drop in pH and KH dropping from 6 to 4.
Fish has stopped flashing now but was giving itself a good thrashing earlier .....
The other thing I have noticed for the first time this year is black/very dark purple-ish slimy algae (that peels off in huge sheets) instead of the previous green fibrous fuzzy stuff if that makes any difference ....
Re: Is 0.9ppt salt safe to use with Tench?
trace
i would monitor the situation closely but i believe you wont need to treat and should not treat until you have a credible outbreak if you treat every time you see just one parasite your going to be awfully busy
the idea that parasites come from nowhere is ludicrous parasites are apart of every day life in all walks of life including our own and are not a problem till they becomes out of control and thats the essence of treating for parasites , when they are totally out of control hit them fast and hard with a targeted treatment other wise take a back seat and see where things eventually lead to
microscopic examination being essential, i add a thought when i deliver my parasite presentation " fish flash for a whole host of reasons and only one of those reasons is parasites"
on that note: PP is never a great option for costia the better option by far is MG&F its far more flexible or ICC
dunc
i would monitor the situation closely but i believe you wont need to treat and should not treat until you have a credible outbreak if you treat every time you see just one parasite your going to be awfully busy
the idea that parasites come from nowhere is ludicrous parasites are apart of every day life in all walks of life including our own and are not a problem till they becomes out of control and thats the essence of treating for parasites , when they are totally out of control hit them fast and hard with a targeted treatment other wise take a back seat and see where things eventually lead to
microscopic examination being essential, i add a thought when i deliver my parasite presentation " fish flash for a whole host of reasons and only one of those reasons is parasites"
on that note: PP is never a great option for costia the better option by far is MG&F its far more flexible or ICC
dunc
Re: Is 0.9ppt salt safe to use with Tench?
Ok will do ... I have some MG & F here but I see ICC gets a good write up from those that have used it so will try that if required in future ...
Any thoughts/opinions/observations on "Lunking" ? or it maybe being connected to black slimey weed (that gathers loads of trapped air under it) or o2 saturation ?
Any thoughts/opinions/observations on "Lunking" ? or it maybe being connected to black slimey weed (that gathers loads of trapped air under it) or o2 saturation ?
Re: Is 0.9ppt salt safe to use with Tench?
Hi Trace, not sure about the black slimy algae unless you've treated for blanket weed earlier this summer. I've read on other forums that you're not the only one with this issue though but I can't say if anyone had a definitive answer.
Ref your jumping fish; is your pond in full sun? If so, check your pH at various times from dawn til dark throughout the day. I recently had an issue with big pH swings throughout the day caused by photosynthesis which caused some of my fish to misbehave in the way you describe. I was amazed at the variation I was getting - as much as a degree and a half on some days! After consulting the guys here I got it under control with the addition of a regular dose of sodium bicarbonate and a big parasol!
Of course, your issue may be completely different but it's worth checking even if it's just to rule it out. Keep us informed.
Regards, M
Ref your jumping fish; is your pond in full sun? If so, check your pH at various times from dawn til dark throughout the day. I recently had an issue with big pH swings throughout the day caused by photosynthesis which caused some of my fish to misbehave in the way you describe. I was amazed at the variation I was getting - as much as a degree and a half on some days! After consulting the guys here I got it under control with the addition of a regular dose of sodium bicarbonate and a big parasol!
Of course, your issue may be completely different but it's worth checking even if it's just to rule it out. Keep us informed.
Regards, M
Re: Is 0.9ppt salt safe to use with Tench?
Hi Airlite ...
Haven't treated for blanket weed ... yes I have read that the creeping black stuff seems to be on the increase ... funnily enough a couple of my fish love eating the stuff ... it seems to be a completely different form of algae and not dead blanket weed ...
Pond is not in full sun I have a roofed pergola and small shade sail ... I add Sodium Bicarbonate as standard as our water out the tap here is <1 dKH so needs buffering I buffer to 6 dKH as standard.
I will test pH throughout the day soon though as I haven't done it for ages ....
Haven't treated for blanket weed ... yes I have read that the creeping black stuff seems to be on the increase ... funnily enough a couple of my fish love eating the stuff ... it seems to be a completely different form of algae and not dead blanket weed ...
Pond is not in full sun I have a roofed pergola and small shade sail ... I add Sodium Bicarbonate as standard as our water out the tap here is <1 dKH so needs buffering I buffer to 6 dKH as standard.
I will test pH throughout the day soon though as I haven't done it for ages ....
Re: Is 0.9ppt salt safe to use with Tench?
trace
the algae maybe reacting to your high PP treatments its just a thought
regarding lunking i had several fish that did it for years with no ill effects to the fish some do it to clear debris from their gill lamellae and seem to like the effect and will carry on doing it
in any event its really nothing to worry about ive never heard of this phenomena being associated with anything to be concerned with
pH always fluctuates from morning to nigh its a natural event as during the day algae via photosynthesis will convert co2 to O2 thus raising the pH , during the night when there is no sunlight the reverse happens the use O2 producing co2 thus lowering pH
this is normal so don't be surprised when measuring pH if you see a difference between your morning reading and evening reading the morning producing a low pH evening a higher pH
dunc
the algae maybe reacting to your high PP treatments its just a thought
regarding lunking i had several fish that did it for years with no ill effects to the fish some do it to clear debris from their gill lamellae and seem to like the effect and will carry on doing it
in any event its really nothing to worry about ive never heard of this phenomena being associated with anything to be concerned with
pH always fluctuates from morning to nigh its a natural event as during the day algae via photosynthesis will convert co2 to O2 thus raising the pH , during the night when there is no sunlight the reverse happens the use O2 producing co2 thus lowering pH
this is normal so don't be surprised when measuring pH if you see a difference between your morning reading and evening reading the morning producing a low pH evening a higher pH
dunc
Re: Is 0.9ppt salt safe to use with Tench?
The black stuff started way before any treatments were done Duncan.
Just when I thought things were improving It seems I may not be out of the woods yet .... noticed one of my small Koi (5") constantly "chewing" all the time today (without any food being present) watched him all day ..... not bottom sitting or gasping at the surface ... still swimming about but chewing all the time which I'm taking is probably gasping ... when I did feed them he didn't show much interest and spat I think all of the few he tried to pick up back out.
Again water is good: pH 8.2, Ammo 0, No2 0, No3 0, KH 5 ... I scraped him concentrating around the operculum edges on both sides, then belly and side ... it was clear ... I didn't manage a gill scrape as he just wasn't for it.
If I've got time tomorrow I'll sedate him and try to get a gill scrape but I'm not great at scraping small ones ...
If you've any tips for gill scraping small Koi I'm all ears ....
I suspect gill flukes and still have some fresh Flubenol (only two weeks old) but have read that a lot of people are failing to succeed in follow up doses of Flubenol (I originally treated twice 6 days apart 1g/89gallons a week or so ago). Have you any advice for any further dose amounts should it turn out to be gill flukes?
Pond is unheated here and only about 14.5c at the moment ... down from 20c about two weeks ago.
Just when I thought things were improving It seems I may not be out of the woods yet .... noticed one of my small Koi (5") constantly "chewing" all the time today (without any food being present) watched him all day ..... not bottom sitting or gasping at the surface ... still swimming about but chewing all the time which I'm taking is probably gasping ... when I did feed them he didn't show much interest and spat I think all of the few he tried to pick up back out.
Again water is good: pH 8.2, Ammo 0, No2 0, No3 0, KH 5 ... I scraped him concentrating around the operculum edges on both sides, then belly and side ... it was clear ... I didn't manage a gill scrape as he just wasn't for it.
If I've got time tomorrow I'll sedate him and try to get a gill scrape but I'm not great at scraping small ones ...
If you've any tips for gill scraping small Koi I'm all ears ....
I suspect gill flukes and still have some fresh Flubenol (only two weeks old) but have read that a lot of people are failing to succeed in follow up doses of Flubenol (I originally treated twice 6 days apart 1g/89gallons a week or so ago). Have you any advice for any further dose amounts should it turn out to be gill flukes?
Pond is unheated here and only about 14.5c at the moment ... down from 20c about two weeks ago.
Re: Is 0.9ppt salt safe to use with Tench?
Update from yesterday ....
Sedated small Koi and did a gill scrape as best I could ... not a lot of mucus (which I'm hoping is a good sign but might also be because of an 8min 2.3% salt dip done yesterday morning) ... scraped both gills and both samples showed nothing of a parasitic nature.
Been watching closely again and when he sits with the group his pronounced constant gill movement sticks out like a sore thumb but he doesn't seem to be bottom sitting or gasping at the surface.
Sedated small Koi and did a gill scrape as best I could ... not a lot of mucus (which I'm hoping is a good sign but might also be because of an 8min 2.3% salt dip done yesterday morning) ... scraped both gills and both samples showed nothing of a parasitic nature.
Been watching closely again and when he sits with the group his pronounced constant gill movement sticks out like a sore thumb but he doesn't seem to be bottom sitting or gasping at the surface.
Re: Is 0.9ppt salt safe to use with Tench?
*Update* .... did nothing more just observed the small koi and after a few days the chewing and gill movements returned to normal.
Found a few Costia on two other fish ... so rather than treat the whole pond and blast the filter I just bathed them in strong MG & F for 30mins, then returned them to the pond.
They look happy and have been feeding well for a few days now .... I'm not going to scrape them anymore at the moment unless they show obvious further symptoms.
One thing I've been wondering about as this is my first bad experience with Costia ... I scraped the pond wall at the water line and see what looks like Costia on the sample (along with a multitude of other creatures).
Is the presence of Costia to be expected or anything to be concerned about?
Found a few Costia on two other fish ... so rather than treat the whole pond and blast the filter I just bathed them in strong MG & F for 30mins, then returned them to the pond.
They look happy and have been feeding well for a few days now .... I'm not going to scrape them anymore at the moment unless they show obvious further symptoms.
One thing I've been wondering about as this is my first bad experience with Costia ... I scraped the pond wall at the water line and see what looks like Costia on the sample (along with a multitude of other creatures).
Is the presence of Costia to be expected or anything to be concerned about?