how to clean partially restricted 4"BD pipework
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how to clean partially restricted 4"BD pipework
The pond is over 16 yrs old and I suspect there is some reduction in diameter, due to debre and/or build up of biofim. I have definately found this is the case else where in the system when replacing an old gate valve. AS anyone got any ideas on how to clean this without going for swim. I have thought about using sodium pericarbonate to shift it but worry about any shite getting back to the pond.Sodium percarbonate is just washing soap. When mixed with water breaks into sodium, peroxide and carbonates. The carbonates will increase the p.H and the peroxide will do the cleaning. What do you guys think of this brain storm then
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Manky Sanke
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Re: how to clean partially restricted 4"BD pipework
Dave,
I wouldn't advise putting sodium percarbonate into a pond even if I thought it might actually be an effective way to clear a bottom drain.
If the pipework is partially blocked with silt, a cleaning additive won't move it or, if the problem is organic, such as an accumulation of blanket weed, the additive might eventually decompose it if you seal up the pond end of the bottom drain, to save harming the fish, and wait for a day or two, but the hydrogen peroxide will do nothing to decompose it in the short term.
Depending on what is blocking it and how many bends there are, I would say that a pressure washer drain cleaner attachment, like the one below, is the best bet.
I've used one of these to great effect and, to prevent the stirred up sludge etc. from going back into the pond, what you need to do is have a gallon or so per minute running through the pipe and going to waste. I'll leave it to your ingenuity as to exactly how to go about that but I'll chuck in a couple of ideas:
If the pipework is reasonably uncomplicated, with the pump stopped and a suitable waste valve slightly open, just feed the cleaner back down the pipe from the filter end.
If there are too many bends and the cleaner can't be "waggled backwards and forwards" to get round them all then you may need to break down the pipework to get access to sections that contain fewer bends. You might get access by way of whatever method you used to change your valve. If not, give me more details of the pipework and I'll see what I can suggest.
If you want to break down the pipework without lowering the pond level, a second idea is something I've used a few times when I've needed to work on the main drain pipework of swimming pools. (Main drains are the swimming pool equivalent of what koi keepers call bottom drains). This method won't totally stop the flow but it will reduce it to a gentle dribble which is just what you want anyway.
What we do is to lower a folded bath towel (the bigger and thicker the better) over the main drain and lower four buckets with a few bricks in each so as to hold it in place. The towel won't be very cooperative so you can use gaffer tape to hold it folded. Also a mate with a net to help push it into place and hold it there while you get the weights into position will be a help.
Once you've done that you can do whatever is necessary to the clear the pipe with the cleaner. You can even cut it if necessary because a solvent cement such as "Wet 'R' Dry" can be used to glue pipes that are dribbling water. Or you can cut the pipe and use a flexible rubber boot to re-join it.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Karcher-7-5M- ... 1345278039
I wouldn't advise putting sodium percarbonate into a pond even if I thought it might actually be an effective way to clear a bottom drain.
If the pipework is partially blocked with silt, a cleaning additive won't move it or, if the problem is organic, such as an accumulation of blanket weed, the additive might eventually decompose it if you seal up the pond end of the bottom drain, to save harming the fish, and wait for a day or two, but the hydrogen peroxide will do nothing to decompose it in the short term.
Depending on what is blocking it and how many bends there are, I would say that a pressure washer drain cleaner attachment, like the one below, is the best bet.
I've used one of these to great effect and, to prevent the stirred up sludge etc. from going back into the pond, what you need to do is have a gallon or so per minute running through the pipe and going to waste. I'll leave it to your ingenuity as to exactly how to go about that but I'll chuck in a couple of ideas:
If the pipework is reasonably uncomplicated, with the pump stopped and a suitable waste valve slightly open, just feed the cleaner back down the pipe from the filter end.
If there are too many bends and the cleaner can't be "waggled backwards and forwards" to get round them all then you may need to break down the pipework to get access to sections that contain fewer bends. You might get access by way of whatever method you used to change your valve. If not, give me more details of the pipework and I'll see what I can suggest.
If you want to break down the pipework without lowering the pond level, a second idea is something I've used a few times when I've needed to work on the main drain pipework of swimming pools. (Main drains are the swimming pool equivalent of what koi keepers call bottom drains). This method won't totally stop the flow but it will reduce it to a gentle dribble which is just what you want anyway.
What we do is to lower a folded bath towel (the bigger and thicker the better) over the main drain and lower four buckets with a few bricks in each so as to hold it in place. The towel won't be very cooperative so you can use gaffer tape to hold it folded. Also a mate with a net to help push it into place and hold it there while you get the weights into position will be a help.
Once you've done that you can do whatever is necessary to the clear the pipe with the cleaner. You can even cut it if necessary because a solvent cement such as "Wet 'R' Dry" can be used to glue pipes that are dribbling water. Or you can cut the pipe and use a flexible rubber boot to re-join it.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Karcher-7-5M- ... 1345278039
Re: how to clean partially restricted 4"BD pipework
Thanks Sid for your quick response. I already have the detatchment you mentioned and have used it to great effect in smaller bore pipe work without any water in them. Just wasn,t sure if it would work as well, when full of water. As you say I might have to block it off with towels. Without doing a drawing I don,t think it is too complicated with only 2x 90 deg bends and a 45 deg in the vortex which I think can be removed. As there is nowhere near a blockage and have 15000 ltrs/hour pump on . I just think it is a build up of biofilm. When I cleaned the other pipes the reduction in diameter due to this biofilm was at least an 1/8" thick and on a 11/2" discharge pipe is quite a lot. The fact that the waterflow in this small pipework must be a lot faster, aive me the idea that it might well be worse on the 4" gravit fed. This is the only bit of pipework which has not either been cleaned or completely renewed over the years. Hope this makes sense. Best REgards Dave
Re: how to clean partially restricted 4"BD pipework
Hi Dave
Could you just drain enough water out the pond till it's below the filter line, not too sure if this would work but I have been thinking of having a go at my bottom drain as it's been on over 8years now,
I bought the pipe for my power washer 2 years ago and still thinking about doing it, can't rush these thing when your an old man hahaha.
Regards Geoff
Could you just drain enough water out the pond till it's below the filter line, not too sure if this would work but I have been thinking of having a go at my bottom drain as it's been on over 8years now,
I bought the pipe for my power washer 2 years ago and still thinking about doing it, can't rush these thing when your an old man hahaha.
Regards Geoff
Re: how to clean partially restricted 4"BD pipework
My thoughts exactly. Drain the pond to below the filter line is not an impossibilty. Just a lot of hassle filling it again.The filters would also need to be isolated as they may dry out if allowed to be emptied. It might be possible to pump feed the filters over the top to keep every thing going. But sounds like more hassle and might end up with the crap mixing in with the koi. Which needs to be avoided at all costs. best Regards DaveGeoff9 wrote:Hi Dave
Could you just drain enough water out the pond till it's below the filter line, not too sure if this would work but I have been thinking of having a go at my bottom drain as it's been on over 8years now,
I bought the pipe for my power washer 2 years ago and still thinking about doing it, can't rush these thing when your an old man hahaha.
Regards Geoff
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Manky Sanke
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Re: how to clean partially restricted 4"BD pipework
Geoff,
Obviously, if you drain the pond to a level that is lower than where you can access the bottom drain pipe then the water in it will be at the same lower level. That means there will be no leakage but, if you do that, then the sludgy water that will fill the pipe as you clean it will have to go somewhere and that means back into the pond, carrying the sludge with it.
That was why I suggested that the ideal way to pressure clean the bottom drain pipework would be whilst there was a gallon or so per minute flowing out from the pond, through the pipe and running to waste. This flow will take any sludge with it so that none will get back to the pond.
Dave,
Refining the towel idea, the bottom drain of a swimming pool usually has a flat grille so when the weighted buckets are lowered onto the towel, one can be positioned directly over the grille and that will press the towel down over it and will help make a good seal. Since bottom drains usually have a dome on them, the towel seal can be improved by folding a bin bag into the towel. Once everything is in place and work begins, with a small flow to waste, the pipe will drain slightly. Once the initial squirt of water has exited the pipe, the pipe itself will no longer be under the full pressure caused by the head of water above it, nor will the underside of the bin bag, but the topside of the bag will have the full pressure pressing down on it. This will press the towel/bag arrangement tightly against the floor and the dome making an even better seal.
Also, I wouldn't worry about stopping the pump for a couple of hours, even if it means that the filters drain. Unless you did this on a very hot day and fed the fish as well, the biofilter media will stay wet, even in an empty bay and the ammonia level in the pond won't rise significantly.
Obviously, if you drain the pond to a level that is lower than where you can access the bottom drain pipe then the water in it will be at the same lower level. That means there will be no leakage but, if you do that, then the sludgy water that will fill the pipe as you clean it will have to go somewhere and that means back into the pond, carrying the sludge with it.
That was why I suggested that the ideal way to pressure clean the bottom drain pipework would be whilst there was a gallon or so per minute flowing out from the pond, through the pipe and running to waste. This flow will take any sludge with it so that none will get back to the pond.
Dave,
Refining the towel idea, the bottom drain of a swimming pool usually has a flat grille so when the weighted buckets are lowered onto the towel, one can be positioned directly over the grille and that will press the towel down over it and will help make a good seal. Since bottom drains usually have a dome on them, the towel seal can be improved by folding a bin bag into the towel. Once everything is in place and work begins, with a small flow to waste, the pipe will drain slightly. Once the initial squirt of water has exited the pipe, the pipe itself will no longer be under the full pressure caused by the head of water above it, nor will the underside of the bin bag, but the topside of the bag will have the full pressure pressing down on it. This will press the towel/bag arrangement tightly against the floor and the dome making an even better seal.
Also, I wouldn't worry about stopping the pump for a couple of hours, even if it means that the filters drain. Unless you did this on a very hot day and fed the fish as well, the biofilter media will stay wet, even in an empty bay and the ammonia level in the pond won't rise significantly.
Re: how to clean partially restricted 4"BD pipework
Dear Sid
The idea of placing the towel/binbag over the Bottom drain dome sounds like a better idea to me as I would feel less worried about the towel completely disapearing into the pipe when maximum pressure is applied with the water head. I just have to wait until it is warm enough for me to carry this out. After the work is completed is it just a case of peeling back the plastic bag and allow the water to flush the pipe clear to the vortex and then drain . Would you recommend a dose of PP or CT to ensure any bad bacteria is neutralised. Best REgards Dave
The idea of placing the towel/binbag over the Bottom drain dome sounds like a better idea to me as I would feel less worried about the towel completely disapearing into the pipe when maximum pressure is applied with the water head. I just have to wait until it is warm enough for me to carry this out. After the work is completed is it just a case of peeling back the plastic bag and allow the water to flush the pipe clear to the vortex and then drain . Would you recommend a dose of PP or CT to ensure any bad bacteria is neutralised. Best REgards Dave
Re: how to clean partially restricted 4"BD pipework
Hi Sid
I got it wrong as I was thinking if I let the water level in my pond down to the Nexus enter point it would hold but of course your right when I open the 4"valve the water would gush out till the pond empty, please put it down to a senior moment
Dave don't be mardy throw yourself in there you will soon get use to the cold water then when you have sorted it out you can come and do mine
Kind Regards Geoff
I got it wrong as I was thinking if I let the water level in my pond down to the Nexus enter point it would hold but of course your right when I open the 4"valve the water would gush out till the pond empty, please put it down to a senior moment
Dave don't be mardy throw yourself in there you will soon get use to the cold water then when you have sorted it out you can come and do mine
Kind Regards Geoff
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Manky Sanke
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Re: how to clean partially restricted 4"BD pipework
Dave,
If you're clever with hooks on sticks or fishing rod type "precision bucket positioning tools", there will be no need to get wet, if that's the reason you want to wait until it's warm enough. Also, if you are planning to have a biofilter out of action for any length of time then, ideally, the best time to do it is when the water is cold because the fish will be excreting less ammonia.
Trying to disinfect the pipe with potassium permanganate or Chloramine T after you've cleaned it wouldn't be successful because the "hi-tech water-stopper device"
won't make a perfect seal and there will be a small but continuous steady flow through the pipe which wouldn't allow you to keep a chemical in there for any length of time without it being diluted and washed out. When you've finished, I would just allow a good whoosh of water to run to waste. That will help flush out any loose debris or bugs that have been dislodged but which haven't already been washed out of the pipe.
There is an even more high-tech device you could make if you ever wanted to make a near-watertight seal over a bottom drain. I actually used this idea on my own swimming pool when I wanted to cut the main drain pipe, six feet below water level, and work on it for an hour without any significant leakage. (My filtration equipment is underground at that depth and I didn't want to drown the equipment or myself).
I took a strong bucket, put a ring of thick foam draught excluder around the top and turned it upside down. Then I put a concrete block on top and used plenty of gaffer tape to hold it in position on the bucket. The final refinement was to tie some strong string to the block so that I could lift the whole thing and it would hang vertically(ish).
The trick is to put the bucket into the water on its side so that it completely fills with water. It will then hang vertically underwater and can be lowered into position. The weight of the block will provide the initial pressure to squash the draught excluder so that it will make a good seal and keep the bucket in place, but the seal gets better when the pipe is cut. When the water in the pipe drains away, there will be very little water pressure under the bucket but about ½ pound per square inch on top of it for every one foot depth of water above it and this will help seal it to the floor even more tightly.
I can't remember exactly how much water leaked out during the operation but I only took a small bucket and a sponge down with me to mop up the spillage and I didn't need to come up to empty it so it would have been less than a couple of gallons.
Geoff,
If your bottom drain valve is located at a similar depth below water level, so that you would risk draining the pond, you might try the super-hi-tech bucket and block idea. I haven't patented it yet so you won't have to pay me a royalty.
If you're clever with hooks on sticks or fishing rod type "precision bucket positioning tools", there will be no need to get wet, if that's the reason you want to wait until it's warm enough. Also, if you are planning to have a biofilter out of action for any length of time then, ideally, the best time to do it is when the water is cold because the fish will be excreting less ammonia.
Trying to disinfect the pipe with potassium permanganate or Chloramine T after you've cleaned it wouldn't be successful because the "hi-tech water-stopper device"
won't make a perfect seal and there will be a small but continuous steady flow through the pipe which wouldn't allow you to keep a chemical in there for any length of time without it being diluted and washed out. When you've finished, I would just allow a good whoosh of water to run to waste. That will help flush out any loose debris or bugs that have been dislodged but which haven't already been washed out of the pipe.There is an even more high-tech device you could make if you ever wanted to make a near-watertight seal over a bottom drain. I actually used this idea on my own swimming pool when I wanted to cut the main drain pipe, six feet below water level, and work on it for an hour without any significant leakage. (My filtration equipment is underground at that depth and I didn't want to drown the equipment or myself).
I took a strong bucket, put a ring of thick foam draught excluder around the top and turned it upside down. Then I put a concrete block on top and used plenty of gaffer tape to hold it in position on the bucket. The final refinement was to tie some strong string to the block so that I could lift the whole thing and it would hang vertically(ish).
The trick is to put the bucket into the water on its side so that it completely fills with water. It will then hang vertically underwater and can be lowered into position. The weight of the block will provide the initial pressure to squash the draught excluder so that it will make a good seal and keep the bucket in place, but the seal gets better when the pipe is cut. When the water in the pipe drains away, there will be very little water pressure under the bucket but about ½ pound per square inch on top of it for every one foot depth of water above it and this will help seal it to the floor even more tightly.
I can't remember exactly how much water leaked out during the operation but I only took a small bucket and a sponge down with me to mop up the spillage and I didn't need to come up to empty it so it would have been less than a couple of gallons.
Geoff,
If your bottom drain valve is located at a similar depth below water level, so that you would risk draining the pond, you might try the super-hi-tech bucket and block idea. I haven't patented it yet so you won't have to pay me a royalty.
Re: how to clean partially restricted 4"BD pipework
Sid Thank you once again for another good reply. The idea would be to just try each idea the easiest first. he situation is not yet desperate and will be quite some time before ambient temps warm the pond above what it heated to at the moment. As I am not sure whether there is anything there. I will wait until the covers are removed at the end of march. I do plan not to get wet f I can help it.I might even get away without not stopping the filters for more than a couple of hours.If I am unable to get anywhere with your origonal idea I will the try the next one. I will keep you guys posted on how I get on and what I find. Best Regards Dave
Re: how to clean partially restricted 4"BD pipework
Geoff. I too have my senior moments. I migh just need one before I go in there. Thanks again for your input. Regards DaveGeoff9 wrote:Hi Sid
I got it wrong as I was thinking if I let the water level in my pond down to the Nexus enter point it would hold but of course your right when I open the 4"valve the water would gush out till the pond empty, please put it down to a senior moment
Dave don't be mardy throw yourself in there you will soon get use to the cold water then when you have sorted it out you can come and do mine
Kind Regards Geoff
Re: how to clean partially restricted 4"BD pipework
dave, forgive me if somebody has suggested this already, but have you got a 4" valve gate or otherwise between your pond and your first filter? if yes, shut it off and empty your filters or the main settlement chamber when its empty open the valve the rush of water through the 4" pipe top fill the filter will shift just about anything, thats what i used to do with my old system
dunc
dunc
Re: how to clean partially restricted 4"BD pipework
Duncan I have. I shut the valve and drain the vortex and give it a 10 second flush every time I clean the vortex. I then allow this to drain away and then repeat. I carry out this procedure every week during the winter and twice weekly in the summer. I usually drain everything out of the filters a couple of times a year. I kind of agree with you Duncan, that there is probably nothing lieing in the pipe other than 16 years of biofilm.Duncan wrote:dave, forgive me if somebody has suggested this already, but have you got a 4" valve gate or otherwise between your pond and your first filter? if yes, shut it off and empty your filters or the main settlement chamber when its empty open the valve the rush of water through the 4" pipe top fill the filter will shift just about anything, thats what i used to do with my old system
dunc
The reason I have been wondering if there is anything in my bottom drain in the first place is due to ongoing problems the prevoius year see post http://www.koiquest.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... =2&t=12325
I have double checked to see if I have any dirt in my filters and cleaned out every piece of pipework except the bottom drain. If I have anymore problems, this is the only place left that I have not checked. Best Regards Dave.
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Gazza
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Re: how to clean partially restricted 4"BD pipework
Hi Dave,
Is this for piece of mind or do you think you have got something stuck in there or restricteded flow ?
I always dump my filters and try to get a good pull when opening the bottom drain to keep it clean.
Funny eIvegh ive just come in from doing a full filter drain down,this is where I clean out the filters as normal and then completely drain them out and then open the bottom drain so a few hundred gallons of water gets a good rush through the bottom drain pipe work making sure all is nice clean.
Is this for piece of mind or do you think you have got something stuck in there or restricteded flow ?
I always dump my filters and try to get a good pull when opening the bottom drain to keep it clean.
Funny eIvegh ive just come in from doing a full filter drain down,this is where I clean out the filters as normal and then completely drain them out and then open the bottom drain so a few hundred gallons of water gets a good rush through the bottom drain pipe work making sure all is nice clean.
Re: how to clean partially restricted 4"BD pipework
Gazza I am sorry I have been late in response as I have been away on holliday. It is more of a piece of mind as I can,t say for sure if there is any flow reduction, However due to continuose problems last year ( flukes) and p.H fluctuations together with higher nitrates than usual . I have gone through every bit of pipework in the pond and filters etc. The only thing left is the bottom drain pipework. So if problems persist this year I am thinking of giving the aforesaid a clean. Best Regards Dave