Hi everyone
Well here we are again warmer weather is slowly returning so our thoughts turn again to how we can improve things for our Koi and their ponds. As you may know or not, while my Koi were being looked after during the house move they suffered from being poisoned resulting me losing most of my beautiful Koi. This happend at the end of the summer and the deaths only stopped when all Koi where brought down and placed in my pond in early November. Now the warmer weather is coming my fear is things will start off again. I am going to be using Dettox to help them remove anything that may be left in their systems, but I am considering using Ozone even if for a short while to help them as much as I can. A couple have survived the winter being very quiet and really not doing much and I would say I could lose 3 more large Koi at least. I know a lot of will not agree with this but I have also added salt over the week just to help keep things back while they get back to full strength. My question is would using Ozone help them in any way. I remember years ago reading about the use of Ozone in a pond system but to be honest it was so long ago the facts of using it have disappeared from my memory (its my age I think) lol. Any help or advice anyone can possibly give would be wonderful. Over what happened I have come very close to actually giving up but the thought of not having Koi in my life is very upsetting but to carry on after I have lost nearly all my Koi has also been really hard so I really do need your valued help and advice.
Thanks in advance for any help you give
Using Ozone
Moderators: B.Scott, vippymini, Gazza, Manky Sanke
Re: Using Ozone
Hi Kim
Sorry you have had a lot of problems,as I understand it Ozone kills all organic's in a pond but it doesn't know when to stop and will kill the koi if you used too much,so you need an orp meter in the system to keep it in check,thats about all I can remember, hope it's of some help.
Regards Geoff
Sorry you have had a lot of problems,as I understand it Ozone kills all organic's in a pond but it doesn't know when to stop and will kill the koi if you used too much,so you need an orp meter in the system to keep it in check,thats about all I can remember, hope it's of some help.
Regards Geoff
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Gazza
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Re: Using Ozone
Hi Kim,
Leave them as they are and let them settle in i would not use Ozone personally just let them find their way in the new pond.
Leave them as they are and let them settle in i would not use Ozone personally just let them find their way in the new pond.
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Manky Sanke
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Re: Using Ozone
Kim,
I wrote about using ozone in koi ponds for Koi Carp last year. It has clear advantages when used for sterilising water but below a critical value does very little. When the concentration is increased above this value it is very effective at sterilising the water but will also harm any fish in it, possibly fatally if that level is maintained for very long.
As usual, to save me typing a long explanation, read this extract from the article:
Ozone and ORP
Ozone raises ORP levels in water because it is such a powerful oxidiser and it has been used for some time to ensure that water is biologically sterile. In properly designed systems it has a devastating effect on harmful bacteria. Manufacturers of pond equipment are always looking for new products to sell to pond keepers and so it was only a matter of time before they made smaller versions of this equipment that could be used on our ponds. The way ozone sterilisers work is like this:
Single atoms of oxygen (O) do not like being on their own so they join up in pairs, which is why we refer to oxygen as O2. An ozone generator breaks apart some of the pairs and forces them to join up in threes (O3) but this is an unstable relationship. So, the third member soon breaks away again and looks for a new partner. If it finds another single oxygen atom, it makes a new pair (O2) and peace is restored. If, instead, it should bump into an organic cell it will oxidise it and, in doing so, the cell will be fatally damaged. Bacteria are single cell organisms and so damaging their only cell means that they are killed almost immediately on contact with water containing ozone.
Ozone isn’t particular about what type of organic cell it oxidises. It will destroy whatever cell it touches. This is why, when ozone is used to sterilise swimming pools, great care has to be taken to draw water out of the pool, sterilise it in specially designed equipment, and then remove all trace of ozone from the water before it is returned to the pool. This ensures that ozone cannot escape into the pool itself and affect the eyes or other delicate tissues of bathers.
Ozone is produced naturally in the atmosphere in very low concentrations. The air, after an electrical storm contains trace amounts of this form of oxygen. It feels pleasantly “fresh” to breathe but in anything other than very low concentrations, ozone is nasty stuff.
I have concerns about the use of ozone in koi ponds because it will damage fish cells (especially gills) with the same efficiency that it damages other organisms. Fish have natural systems that replace dead or damaged cells but subjecting them to continuous ozone means relying on their self-repair systems being able to replace cells that are being damaged as quickly as the damage is occurring. Also, consider the effects of ozone on your biological filter. Ozone is indiscriminate. If it is concentrated enough to kill off harmful bugs, then it is concentrated enough to kill biofilter bugs.
Does ozone reduce levels of harmful bacteria?
There are ozone sterilisers that inject a very small amount of ozone into the water as it is being returned to the pond. The thinking behind this appears to be that if a low level of ozone is put into the pond, it will do more damage to harmful bugs than it does to the fish. At best, the ozone level is so low that the amount of damage that is done to the fish is miniscule. If this is the case then the question to be asked is this: “Is this level of ozone actually effective at reducing the level of bacteria in the pond?”
Bacteria multiply. It’s no good just killing a few. All that will happen is that a “space” will be created in their environment that will be rapidly filled by new bacteria produced by the ones that didn’t get killed. To reduce the overall level of bacteria to the point at which the population dies out, bacteria must be killed at a faster rate than they can multiply. This means that, to be effective, the ozone level in a pond must not be at such a low level that it will only kill a few bugs. It must be high enough to cause mass extinction. But if the level of ozone in the water is high enough to cause populations of harmful bacteria to be killed faster than they can multiply, then surely it will have the same effect on the bugs in the biofilter. Also, at this level, the damage done to the fish will be greater due to the higher number of free oxygen atoms that will encounter a fish cell instead of a bacteria cell.
Why use ozone in a koi pond?
One common answer to that question is that it will provide continuous reduction of harmful bacteria. To counter that, I’d suggest that it would be better to concentrate on keeping the pond hygienic so that these bacteria do not breed in the first place, rather than trying to eliminate them afterwards.
A second answer that is sometimes given is that using ozone to raise ORP levels in ponds will reduce levels of toxic free ammonia (NH3) and nitrite (NO2). Two equations are often quoted to “prove” that this is true.
2NH3 + 4O3 = NH4NO3 + 4O2 + H2O
ammonia + ozone = ammonium nitrate + oxygen + water
NO2 + O3 = NO3 + O2
nitrite + ozone = nitrate + oxygen
From a pure chemistry point of view, both these equations are perfectly correct and this is exactly what would happen in a test tube in a laboratory but this is totally inappropriate in the context of a koi pond. Look at the first equation, (it’s not hard), it says that two molecules of ammonia (2NH3) plus four molecules of ozone (4O3) combine to make a molecule of ammonium nitrate (NH4NO3) plus some oxygen and water which we can ignore. The first thing to be aware of is that changing ammonia to ammonium nitrate doesn’t make it vanish. Ammonium nitrate is also toxic to koi but, unlike ammonia, it can’t be removed by bugs in the biofilter, it has to be diluted away by water changes in the same way as water changes reduce nitrate.
Another thing to notice about the first equation is that, because it takes four molecules of ozone to convert two molecules of ammonia, this means that the ozone level would have to be twice as high as the ammonia it has been put into the pond to remove! To maintain that level of ozone permanently would harm the koi. It is far better to allow the biological filter to remove the ammonia in the way it was designed to do.
Using ozone to remove ammonia or nitrite in a koi pond has no advantages, a properly working biological filter is still the best way to dispose of ammonia or nitrite but this doesn’t mean that ozone has no advantages and mustn’t be used.
Ozone can be beneficial
Ozone is quite easy to remove from water; heavy aeration is very effective. If water is drawn from the pond, treated in external equipment, and then the excess ozone is removed by heavy aeration before the water is returned to the pond, then it is a perfectly safe way to sterilise water without leaving any residual by-products. However, this equipment is something that has to be installed and maintained properly. It isn’t a handy add-on that can be plumbed into a pond without full knowledge of how it works and the risks that are involved in subjecting koi to a continuous level of ozone.
The effect of ozone below a certain critical concentration value is either very small or non-existent, above this critical "threshold value” all pathogens will be destroyed. If ozone is used at a high enough level to raise the ORP to 600 mV it can be very effective at sterilising water and will kill any bacteria or other pathogens in it. It is also said that it will kill viruses. This isn’t quite true because viruses aren’t actually alive in any true sense of the word “living”. They are really just very complex molecules but ozone will destroy them, so although it isn’t possible to kill something that isn’t actually alive, it is true to say that ozone will destroy viruses.
Apart from killing bacteria, fungi and parasites and also destroying viruses, ozone is particularly lethal to planktonic algae (green water) but, again, it has to be above a critical threshold level to kill them. It isn’t possible to achieve this value in a pond without also killing the fish in it but if the pond water is treated outside the pond and any residual ozone is removed before the water is returned then ozone is a very effective algaecide.
I wrote about using ozone in koi ponds for Koi Carp last year. It has clear advantages when used for sterilising water but below a critical value does very little. When the concentration is increased above this value it is very effective at sterilising the water but will also harm any fish in it, possibly fatally if that level is maintained for very long.
As usual, to save me typing a long explanation, read this extract from the article:
Ozone and ORP
Ozone raises ORP levels in water because it is such a powerful oxidiser and it has been used for some time to ensure that water is biologically sterile. In properly designed systems it has a devastating effect on harmful bacteria. Manufacturers of pond equipment are always looking for new products to sell to pond keepers and so it was only a matter of time before they made smaller versions of this equipment that could be used on our ponds. The way ozone sterilisers work is like this:
Single atoms of oxygen (O) do not like being on their own so they join up in pairs, which is why we refer to oxygen as O2. An ozone generator breaks apart some of the pairs and forces them to join up in threes (O3) but this is an unstable relationship. So, the third member soon breaks away again and looks for a new partner. If it finds another single oxygen atom, it makes a new pair (O2) and peace is restored. If, instead, it should bump into an organic cell it will oxidise it and, in doing so, the cell will be fatally damaged. Bacteria are single cell organisms and so damaging their only cell means that they are killed almost immediately on contact with water containing ozone.
Ozone isn’t particular about what type of organic cell it oxidises. It will destroy whatever cell it touches. This is why, when ozone is used to sterilise swimming pools, great care has to be taken to draw water out of the pool, sterilise it in specially designed equipment, and then remove all trace of ozone from the water before it is returned to the pool. This ensures that ozone cannot escape into the pool itself and affect the eyes or other delicate tissues of bathers.
Ozone is produced naturally in the atmosphere in very low concentrations. The air, after an electrical storm contains trace amounts of this form of oxygen. It feels pleasantly “fresh” to breathe but in anything other than very low concentrations, ozone is nasty stuff.
I have concerns about the use of ozone in koi ponds because it will damage fish cells (especially gills) with the same efficiency that it damages other organisms. Fish have natural systems that replace dead or damaged cells but subjecting them to continuous ozone means relying on their self-repair systems being able to replace cells that are being damaged as quickly as the damage is occurring. Also, consider the effects of ozone on your biological filter. Ozone is indiscriminate. If it is concentrated enough to kill off harmful bugs, then it is concentrated enough to kill biofilter bugs.
Does ozone reduce levels of harmful bacteria?
There are ozone sterilisers that inject a very small amount of ozone into the water as it is being returned to the pond. The thinking behind this appears to be that if a low level of ozone is put into the pond, it will do more damage to harmful bugs than it does to the fish. At best, the ozone level is so low that the amount of damage that is done to the fish is miniscule. If this is the case then the question to be asked is this: “Is this level of ozone actually effective at reducing the level of bacteria in the pond?”
Bacteria multiply. It’s no good just killing a few. All that will happen is that a “space” will be created in their environment that will be rapidly filled by new bacteria produced by the ones that didn’t get killed. To reduce the overall level of bacteria to the point at which the population dies out, bacteria must be killed at a faster rate than they can multiply. This means that, to be effective, the ozone level in a pond must not be at such a low level that it will only kill a few bugs. It must be high enough to cause mass extinction. But if the level of ozone in the water is high enough to cause populations of harmful bacteria to be killed faster than they can multiply, then surely it will have the same effect on the bugs in the biofilter. Also, at this level, the damage done to the fish will be greater due to the higher number of free oxygen atoms that will encounter a fish cell instead of a bacteria cell.
Why use ozone in a koi pond?
One common answer to that question is that it will provide continuous reduction of harmful bacteria. To counter that, I’d suggest that it would be better to concentrate on keeping the pond hygienic so that these bacteria do not breed in the first place, rather than trying to eliminate them afterwards.
A second answer that is sometimes given is that using ozone to raise ORP levels in ponds will reduce levels of toxic free ammonia (NH3) and nitrite (NO2). Two equations are often quoted to “prove” that this is true.
2NH3 + 4O3 = NH4NO3 + 4O2 + H2O
ammonia + ozone = ammonium nitrate + oxygen + water
NO2 + O3 = NO3 + O2
nitrite + ozone = nitrate + oxygen
From a pure chemistry point of view, both these equations are perfectly correct and this is exactly what would happen in a test tube in a laboratory but this is totally inappropriate in the context of a koi pond. Look at the first equation, (it’s not hard), it says that two molecules of ammonia (2NH3) plus four molecules of ozone (4O3) combine to make a molecule of ammonium nitrate (NH4NO3) plus some oxygen and water which we can ignore. The first thing to be aware of is that changing ammonia to ammonium nitrate doesn’t make it vanish. Ammonium nitrate is also toxic to koi but, unlike ammonia, it can’t be removed by bugs in the biofilter, it has to be diluted away by water changes in the same way as water changes reduce nitrate.
Another thing to notice about the first equation is that, because it takes four molecules of ozone to convert two molecules of ammonia, this means that the ozone level would have to be twice as high as the ammonia it has been put into the pond to remove! To maintain that level of ozone permanently would harm the koi. It is far better to allow the biological filter to remove the ammonia in the way it was designed to do.
Using ozone to remove ammonia or nitrite in a koi pond has no advantages, a properly working biological filter is still the best way to dispose of ammonia or nitrite but this doesn’t mean that ozone has no advantages and mustn’t be used.
Ozone can be beneficial
Ozone is quite easy to remove from water; heavy aeration is very effective. If water is drawn from the pond, treated in external equipment, and then the excess ozone is removed by heavy aeration before the water is returned to the pond, then it is a perfectly safe way to sterilise water without leaving any residual by-products. However, this equipment is something that has to be installed and maintained properly. It isn’t a handy add-on that can be plumbed into a pond without full knowledge of how it works and the risks that are involved in subjecting koi to a continuous level of ozone.
The effect of ozone below a certain critical concentration value is either very small or non-existent, above this critical "threshold value” all pathogens will be destroyed. If ozone is used at a high enough level to raise the ORP to 600 mV it can be very effective at sterilising water and will kill any bacteria or other pathogens in it. It is also said that it will kill viruses. This isn’t quite true because viruses aren’t actually alive in any true sense of the word “living”. They are really just very complex molecules but ozone will destroy them, so although it isn’t possible to kill something that isn’t actually alive, it is true to say that ozone will destroy viruses.
Apart from killing bacteria, fungi and parasites and also destroying viruses, ozone is particularly lethal to planktonic algae (green water) but, again, it has to be above a critical threshold level to kill them. It isn’t possible to achieve this value in a pond without also killing the fish in it but if the pond water is treated outside the pond and any residual ozone is removed before the water is returned then ozone is a very effective algaecide.
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Gazza
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Re: Using Ozone
Hi Manky,
So in short would you use Ozone as it is not really for use in ponds
So in short would you use Ozone as it is not really for use in ponds
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Manky Sanke
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Re: Using Ozone
Gazza,
I wouldn't use ozone myself, I'd rather have a hygienic pond that didn't need to be sterilised in order to kill bad bacteria and I also use a UV to keep it free of planktonic (green water) algae. Ozone can also remove discolouration caused by DOCs but that's a problem I don't have.
Having said that, if anyone did want to use ozone I'm perfectly happy with it being used outside the pond provided any excess ozone was removed before the water was returned because of the risk to fish if any significant level was to build up in the water.
I wouldn't use ozone myself, I'd rather have a hygienic pond that didn't need to be sterilised in order to kill bad bacteria and I also use a UV to keep it free of planktonic (green water) algae. Ozone can also remove discolouration caused by DOCs but that's a problem I don't have.
Having said that, if anyone did want to use ozone I'm perfectly happy with it being used outside the pond provided any excess ozone was removed before the water was returned because of the risk to fish if any significant level was to build up in the water.
Re: Using Ozone
Nice one Syd,thats what I was trying to say 
Regards Geoff
Regards Geoff
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Gazza
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Re: Using Ozone
Hi Syd,
Yes i agree
Yes i agree
Re: Using Ozone
Hi Sid Gazza and Geoff
Thank you so much for your replies, and Sid as usual a full and in depth answer giving so much information. My friend has just bought an small Ozone generator and it comes with silicon air line and 2 air stones and in the information it said it can be used in a Koi Pond killing bacteria Amonia Nitrite and nitrate. It produces 200mg per hour of Ozone. What I thought would be a good idea would be to place the air stones in the vortex as this in my mind is the dirtiest part of any filtration no matter how often you clean this is where all the rubbish is collected. Any Ozone that isn't used or gassed off would then pass through the pipe work through the UVC and then into the filter and the water then returns to the pond. But as there is no way of finding out how much Ozone is left in the water Ozone could then get into the pond and last thing I want is to do any damage to the Koi that are left.
Thinking in a differant way, would it be possible to use Ozone just in the vortex during cleaning, by this I mean, shut the ball valve from the pond to the vortex, clean the vortex as normal, then one the last rinse as such run the Ozone for say 30 minutes so if any nasty bugs are left in the vortex the Ozone would kill them, this water is then sent straight down the drain not entering the pipe work, filter or pond. Could it be used in the cleaning only, or is there still a risk that some could escape into the system.
This is the Ozone generator I have been asked to look at http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/140843082562? ... 1438.l2649
Thank you again for all the replies and help you are all stars in my eyes
Thank you so much for your replies, and Sid as usual a full and in depth answer giving so much information. My friend has just bought an small Ozone generator and it comes with silicon air line and 2 air stones and in the information it said it can be used in a Koi Pond killing bacteria Amonia Nitrite and nitrate. It produces 200mg per hour of Ozone. What I thought would be a good idea would be to place the air stones in the vortex as this in my mind is the dirtiest part of any filtration no matter how often you clean this is where all the rubbish is collected. Any Ozone that isn't used or gassed off would then pass through the pipe work through the UVC and then into the filter and the water then returns to the pond. But as there is no way of finding out how much Ozone is left in the water Ozone could then get into the pond and last thing I want is to do any damage to the Koi that are left.
Thinking in a differant way, would it be possible to use Ozone just in the vortex during cleaning, by this I mean, shut the ball valve from the pond to the vortex, clean the vortex as normal, then one the last rinse as such run the Ozone for say 30 minutes so if any nasty bugs are left in the vortex the Ozone would kill them, this water is then sent straight down the drain not entering the pipe work, filter or pond. Could it be used in the cleaning only, or is there still a risk that some could escape into the system.
This is the Ozone generator I have been asked to look at http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/140843082562? ... 1438.l2649
Thank you again for all the replies and help you are all stars in my eyes
-
Manky Sanke
- Site Admin
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Re: Using Ozone
Kim,
The problem with ozone is that it's indiscriminate about the bugs it kills. If the ozone level this device will dissolve into the water is concentrated enough to harm bad bugs then it will be concentrated enough to harm good bugs in the biofilter just a few feet further on.
If I read your post correctly and the water goes from the vortex via a UV before it goes to the biofilter then passing the freshly ozonated water through the UV will remove some or even all of the ozone while it's on and may be sufficient to protect the biofilter from damage. But as the power of the UV decreases with age so will the level of protection. If the UV was to fail or be switched off for any reason, the good bugs would be exposed to the same level of ozone as any bad bugs that happened to be in the vortex.
As for removing ammonia; re-read the section " Why use ozone in a koi pond". The two equations are perfectly correct and is exactly what can be proved to happen in a test tube but they aren't appropriate in a koi pond because firstly ozone doesn't make ammonia vanish, it turns it into ammonium nitrate.
What the sellers either don't understand or conveniently forget to mention is that ammonium nitrate is also toxic but the ammonia bug can't dispose of it in this form, it stays in the water and has to be diluted away. Secondly, from the equation, it can be seen that it takes four molecules of ozone to change two molecules of ammonia into a single molecule of ammonium nitrate so the ozone level has to be twice the level of ammonia for it to be effective.
Bad bugs don't particularly tend to congregate in a vortex unless silt or organic matter is allowed to accumulate and then left to decompose there. They won't suddenly appear because something settles to the bottom so regular flushing to waste will keep this section as clean as any other part of the filter system.
The problem with ozone is that it's indiscriminate about the bugs it kills. If the ozone level this device will dissolve into the water is concentrated enough to harm bad bugs then it will be concentrated enough to harm good bugs in the biofilter just a few feet further on.
If I read your post correctly and the water goes from the vortex via a UV before it goes to the biofilter then passing the freshly ozonated water through the UV will remove some or even all of the ozone while it's on and may be sufficient to protect the biofilter from damage. But as the power of the UV decreases with age so will the level of protection. If the UV was to fail or be switched off for any reason, the good bugs would be exposed to the same level of ozone as any bad bugs that happened to be in the vortex.
As for removing ammonia; re-read the section " Why use ozone in a koi pond". The two equations are perfectly correct and is exactly what can be proved to happen in a test tube but they aren't appropriate in a koi pond because firstly ozone doesn't make ammonia vanish, it turns it into ammonium nitrate.
What the sellers either don't understand or conveniently forget to mention is that ammonium nitrate is also toxic but the ammonia bug can't dispose of it in this form, it stays in the water and has to be diluted away. Secondly, from the equation, it can be seen that it takes four molecules of ozone to change two molecules of ammonia into a single molecule of ammonium nitrate so the ozone level has to be twice the level of ammonia for it to be effective.
Bad bugs don't particularly tend to congregate in a vortex unless silt or organic matter is allowed to accumulate and then left to decompose there. They won't suddenly appear because something settles to the bottom so regular flushing to waste will keep this section as clean as any other part of the filter system.
Re: Using Ozone
Hi Sid
Thank you again for your reply I can always rely on you for giving a good understanding as to why or why not lol .
My cleaning is done on a daily basis which means everything is in the vortex for a maximum of 24 hours give or take, so what you are saying as long as the vortex is flushed often enough there would no need for cause of concern in nasties lurking anywhere. I knew I could not put Ozone straight into the pond itself, but as we all know if you are going to get problems with Koi it will as a rule be when they are coming out of winter and because all but 3 of the Koi are not starting off fighting fit I was just wondering if there was anything else I could do to try to give them very best enviroment I can with the set up I have at the moment. My idea was to use the Ozone only in the vortex and flush to waste but my concern was would any residue Ozone be left that could possibly pass through the pipework through the UVC and onto the filter, the last thing I would want to do is destroy any good bacteria
Once again Sid thank you
Thank you again for your reply I can always rely on you for giving a good understanding as to why or why not lol .
My cleaning is done on a daily basis which means everything is in the vortex for a maximum of 24 hours give or take, so what you are saying as long as the vortex is flushed often enough there would no need for cause of concern in nasties lurking anywhere. I knew I could not put Ozone straight into the pond itself, but as we all know if you are going to get problems with Koi it will as a rule be when they are coming out of winter and because all but 3 of the Koi are not starting off fighting fit I was just wondering if there was anything else I could do to try to give them very best enviroment I can with the set up I have at the moment. My idea was to use the Ozone only in the vortex and flush to waste but my concern was would any residue Ozone be left that could possibly pass through the pipework through the UVC and onto the filter, the last thing I would want to do is destroy any good bacteria
Once again Sid thank you
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Gazza
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Re: Using Ozone
Hi Kim,
Save your money and time and just keep the pond as clean as you can and good water and you will be fine
Save your money and time and just keep the pond as clean as you can and good water and you will be fine
Re: Using Ozone
Hi Gazza
I will do it was just something I had thought about and wondered because of what they had been through whether it would be a good idea. Always know the best place to come for the right advice
I will do it was just something I had thought about and wondered because of what they had been through whether it would be a good idea. Always know the best place to come for the right advice