Safe interval for treating

[Dandj]

I know people recommend dosing with PP the day before using fluke treatment for stubborn fluke but how soon can you dose with FMG after using PP?
Found whitespot as well as the trich now.....so really need to nuke that before losing any more koi.
Thanks in advance.
Jane

PS Pond is at 20*C so quite warm

[Kanundra]

You have quite a battle there don't you. So sorry I can't answer anything, but know I'm also going through a pretty shitty patch.

Are you wanting to use Flubenol, Fluke M now, or the FMG? the day after pp? I know you can pp again after 3 days, but as for the others, no clue?

You have Flukes, tric and white spot? Yikes... its a complete nightmare. So wish there was one treatment to wipe out most. PP should have got rid of the Trich, but which of the other two is prob more dangerous?

Be interesting to see the answer for this one, sorry I can't help

[Gazza]

Hi Guys,

I would always leave a clear 7 days between differing treatments to make sure things will be OK and safe.

I do not use PP before treating for flukes as i have found if you use Flubonel (if you can get it) it does the trick first time.

[Dandj]

I read the bible and you can redose FMG if its kill or cure quite quickly so nothing to loose but more koi and have FMG'd the pond after big water change and good flush out of the system. We had neutralised the PP anyway due to the koi gasping at the surface after about 4 hours.
Well PP killed a koi but not the parasites. Knew we had something brewing as they have been flashing for a couple of weeks but as usual finding the culprit was hard, in the end we stopped scraping the ones that were flashing and scraped the ones that were not! Result last night = loads of whitespot and a few flukes.Sunday we found Trich, flukes and ?? chillo in the gills of the dead one.... so PP didn't touch any of these.... but I am afraid whitespot is the killer so have to nuke it again...and again and probably again. Hoping this also knocks the flukes back long enough for the koi to recover so we can leave off treating for flukes and yes we have plenty of flubenol 5% in ready, nice big 600gram tub dispensed "for the koi"!
This is the worst year ever for pond problems.....

[Dandj]

Well seem to have got away with dosing less than 7 days after using PP.

However couple of questions, I read that malachite stays green (Blue in our pond) when the water is acidic. I have tested twice- 2 kits and our pH is 7.5 or 7.8 depending on test kit so 4 days into the FMG the pond remains quite blue in colour. ? why? is it due to the KH dropping a bit? -now 3* - it will go up tomorrow with 20% water change so not worried about that just curious.

Also does the malachite kill whitespot or is it just the formalin (which I understand is gone in 12 hours)?
Not looking forward to the next dose as we have 2 that have not bounced back, resting on the bottom 1 has cloudy eyes the other is just miserable - oh well the rest seem OK and ravenous.

I read that there is a strain of whitespot that does not leave the koi and is hard to treat:

"Interestingly, some research at Oklahoma has revealed a strain of Ich that does not have to leave the fish and whose Ich packet (trophozoite) remains under the epidermis (safe from medications) and the tomites swarm out under the epidermis. The lesions look much like Carp Pox lesions, being large, flattened, and waxy looking. This parasite is harder to clear because it is the free swimming tomite that we can kill with medicaments."

We have a koi that has had lesions like this since last autumn...... and they have got worse since treating .....if I scrape some of the stuff off I guess if whitespot is in there I should see it?.... job for tomorrow after the vacuuming and water changes
I think.

Still the worst year ever - actually it is the first time we have ever treated the main pond for whitespot in many years of keeping koi, previously only ever found it on new koi in Q tank and never since moving to this house =3 years... guess we have been lucky ...until now!

[kimr]

Hi Jane

This year really bad for a lot of people with one thing or another. If I am right the formalin strips the mucus which in turn strips the koi of them, except for White Spot, as you have already mentioned the only reason we have to re-dose 3 times is to get the hatching Tomites which is the only time it can be killed. I think it is the Malachite that does the killing because you can treat with Malachite without having to use Formalin, the effect isnt as good, but still possible. Normally the F&MG treatment will get most parasites on the first pass, including most flukes if not all. Trich is not a true parasite as it doesn't take anything from the host, just hitches a ride so to speak, but because they cause the fish to itch they can damage themselves while flicking or flashing. Flukes can leave wounds where the hooks have been which can become ulcerated. White spot by far is the biggest problem and killer because they are not so easy to kill

[Duncan]

HI Jane

actually you cant kill white spot while its on the fish, as it lives under the epidermis, or while its encysted on the pond floor. you kill it in its immature free swimming state ( tomite or trophont) its the formaldehyde that does the killing but this also strips mucus and makes the fish a bit raw, so the malachite while having a synergistic effect does the soothing

duncan

[Al]

Hi Dunc, maybe a daft question but if malachite is used for a soothing effect after formalin, why isn't it used after or with KmNo4?

[Duncan]

Hi Dunc, maybe a daft question but if malachite is used for a soothing effect after formalin, why isn't it used after or with KmNo4?

hi Al

because A. KMnO4 is not a mucus stripper and B. malchite would knock out the KMnO4 and its not a daft question mate

dunc

[kimr]

Hi Duncan

Yet again another thing learned, when I first started in this koi hobby of ours, and didnt have a clue about anything the so called fish doctor we employed told me never to use formalin only malachite as malachite was all I needed to kill anything in the pond. Which is where I believed this was how it worked. Malachite is such a strong substance and stays in the fish so long is there nothing else that can used along side Formalin, I suppose that is a daft question because if there was you would of told us about it. It is impossible to say you will never have parasites as they can enter the pond in so many differant ways and it seems only strong chemicals work to rid them.

When you buy Malachite it states on the bottle:-

Malachite is an effective treatmet against many echo parasites including Whitespot Flukes Ciliates Flagellates Costia Trichodine Gyrodactylus and Dactylogyrus. This product is of the highest quality and is totally Zinc free.

I have read this on every Malchite product in the shops and it normally states that in may be used with Formalin. So how many people are just throwing Malachite in their ponds for no reason what so ever. I have done it in the past I also like the way they mention fluke then gyrodactylus and dactylogyrus

Thank you Duncan for teaching me something new

[Al]

Ahhh thanks Dunc, I was thinking that because they were both oxidisers they would both strip mucus. Sorry for butting in on the thread Dandj.

[Duncan]

Hi Duncan

When you buy Malachite it states on the bottle:-

Malachite is an effective treatmet against many echo parasites including Whitespot Flukes Ciliates Flagellates Costia Trichodine Gyrodactylus and Dactylogyrus. This product is of the highest quality and is totally Zinc free.

hi kim,

yes it does say that on the bottle or at least some bottles, trouble is it really is not very effective against the parasites listed. Jane will attest has just treated with FMG twice and still has both sets of fluke both gill and body and trichodina, but no white spot and no is having to turn her attention to the flukes

i wish it were effective but its not, its too benign, its basically a antiseptic, tommy 2 ponds uses it neat on open ulcers and folks paint it on fungus on the fins and body , but it does however have a synergistic effect when used with something else in other words it gives that something else a bit of a kick

[Dandj]

Well I for one don't think malachite is benign..... far from it - it is probably the most toxic long lasting chemical we have ever had the misfortune to use.....if it isn't killing parasites then sorry there is no place for it in the pond, there are safer alternatives to sorting out secondary issues after killing parasites, and yes even after PP and 2 xFMG we found a single highly motile minute trich and some very tiny flukes still very much alive but only 1 trich out of 6 scrapes and 1 fluke on each slide so I am not in a great hurry to nuke the flukes more concerned with saving the koi by removing them from malachite poisoning...I do expect the flukes to get a hold pretty fast as the koi are so stressed and toxed by the malachite they are bound to get out of control now. As for the whitespot I am hoping any hatching on the floor die before they koi are returned to the pond!