Dose rate check please.

[Duncan]

Dom

there has to be something else going on in there have you dont things like test pH ETC there is nothing in FMG that would cause fin rot~~~ if anything malachite would help with fin rot malachite has a soothing effect and the formaldehyde would have gone in 12 hours at the outside

[Spalders]

Hi Duncan
Yes I have done full set of water tests, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, low and high range pH, KH, GH, 02, chlorine. I have also tested water from the tap and out of the carbon purifier.
Some of the fish are very listless, some now have injuries that weren't there yesterday and some are shaking their heads vigorously. Some are showing no obvious signs of distress at all (but not feeding) and some are sat on the floor all clamped up.
I honestly think some of them are dying slowly in front of my eyes and there's nothing I can do about it.
I set up the overflow yesterday and am trickling in and out very slowly.
Just considering whether to do a 50% water change (in addition to the large changes done in the last couple of days).
Dom.

[Kanundra]

Sorry that its tough for you, hope it gets easier.

[greg]

Dom,

Need the bigger picture here now.

What have you done to the pond recently in terms of anything added? and i mean anything? BW treatments, chemicals, new koi, filter changes.

If it was me i would have that top up tap "wide open" getting as much fresh water in that pond as necessary and fast. Koi should not be listless (but you know that) so there IS something amiss and it needs finding. When you say you cleaned the filters did you deep clean (especially the bead) ie:- remove beads and look underneath etc. To me fin rot and cloudy eye etc can indicate poor water and i wonder if you've missed / disturbed a dirty spot or something in the filters.

I also wonder if treating the pond with CT / Virkon / Virasure might help at this point to reduce bacterial levels if your seeing wounds / fin rot? Might not be the fix but might slow things down enough while you find the cause - get Duncan to confirm this though.

When you say the readings are OK - What are they - the actual readings?

[Spalders]

Hi Greg,
Thanks.
Ammonia nil, nitrite nil, nitrate 20 - 40, pH 8, O2 14mg l, KH 10 GH 16 temp around 18. In date API test kit.
Bead filter last stripped down about 6 weks ago - all emptied out and flushed. My cleanng routine is to put a LOT of waster through it and flush it properly through the waste valve as well as usual rinse and backwash sequence.
Nexus 310 is cleaned every 24 - 36 hours depending on my work committments. Al K1 last taken out about 8 weeks ago. I have air stones in the outer chamber as well as the air ring.
Honestly it is as clean as the proverbial whistle - I'm paranoid about it.
Had visits from Lee Burroughs Tommy2Ponds and he can vouch for my cleanliness and cleaning routines.
Have been building my stock this year, one in one out policy, Three from Cuttlebrook on the Koimag day and three from Ken at CC.
After the last fish from Ken the problems started. I have spoken to Ken about this and I am not in any way blaming him or his fish, I know the risk of introductions and I accept what he says about his fish being clean.
I have treated for skin flukes with flukesolve earlier this year which also killed off a few trich that were there.
Only other treatments added is maintenance doses of Kusuri Eco Pure and once a week Envirex at 50 grams.
Cant be the water - my QT / growing on tank fish are fine.
I treated with flukesolve 4 days before the FMG but have assurances from Fiona via Lee B that this would not react with FMG and in any case I had done some big water changes (at least 30% but probably 40%) before going in with the FMG for the white spot. There was so much white spot on the scrapes that it had to be treated.
Some fish are showing no ill effects at all - although not feeding.
Others are just generally unhappy and some are very badly affected.
No improvement overnight.
Just dumping both filters now before I have to go to work.
Dom.

[Spalders]

Actually Greg you made me think.
Going to strip the Nexus and bead down now and have a look. Taken day off work - its my company so can do what I like!
Will post later.
Dom.

[Duncan]

Dom

i think you have hit the nail on the head got to the nub of it, Flukesolve 4 days before an MG&F, thats not enough time mate truley, they may well not react together (and im not convinced they would not) but the fish would be doubly pissed off, Prazi is a huge stick to hit them with, indeed this may have been where your white spot came from we used to get white spot reaction from supaverm, then 4 days later followed on the back of with MG&F its too much for them mate

if it were me i would have left at least 7 days and a big water change before putting the MF in after the fluke solve ( I'm not a huge fan of Praziquantel anyway)the yanks use 100% and they have loads of recorded fish morts flukesolve is 50% but still a big stick

as greg said i would get me a bucket of dechlor and run that tap wide open

have you checked for further whitespot?

[Spalders]

Apart from some minor amounts of 'grit' in the bottom of the Nexus outer chamber, and a bit of slime in the stand pipe (below the flap) everything spotless. Nothing in the bead at all.
Certainly nothing that could harbour a bacteria infection in my opinion.
Anyway both Nexus and bead jet washed out just in case.
Dom.

[Spalders]

Dom

i think you have hit the nail on the head got to the nub of it, Flukesolve 4 days before an MG&F, thats not enough time mate truley, they may well not react together (and im not convinced they would not) but the fish would be doubly pissed off, Prazi is a huge stick to hit them with, indeed this may have been where your white spot came from we used to get white spot reaction from supaverm, then 4 days later followed on the back of with MG&F its too much for them mate

if it were me i would have left at least 7 days and a big water change before putting the MF in after the fluke solve ( I'm not a huge fan of Praziquantel anyway)the yanks use 100% and they have loads of recorded fish morts flukesolve is 50% but still a big stick

as greg said i would get me a bucket of dechlor and run that tap wide open

have you checked for further whitespot?

Duncan, sorry missed your post earlier.
Did more scrapes yesterday, no white spot, found one immature fluke on four fish.
Done / doing another big water change at the moment and will continue to trickle in out once finished.
Will flush another lot tonight when I get home.
I do really appreciate everyone's input.
Thanks as always.
Dom.

[kimr]

Hi

While reading this post I thought the same as Duncan, there is something else going on I think the parasites were a sympton not the cause. There are a heck of a lot of Bacterial problems going round at the moment and if they are still showing signs of stress and fin rot then I think the next course of action I would take is to use CT, this will reduce the bacteria and slightly knock back your filters but not to much depending how old your filters are. You need much better help than I can give but that is what I think is going on. The other option is something is making its way into the pond that you can not detect this can be concrete leeching, chemicals from the garden, even a plant that is not good for Koi has managed to get in somehow the weather is causing untold problems for us all this year.

I hope you can sort this soon as ther is nothing worse than watching your Koi suffer and feeling hopeless, but I would go down the route that Malachite and Formalin did not cause this. I wish all the luck and please let us know how things are doing

[Mattybkic]

Been speaking with Spalders daily.

Hoping the action he has now taken should prevent anymore deaths.

Matthew

[Duncan]

Been speaking with Spalders daily.

Hoping the action he has now taken should prevent anymore deaths.

Matthew

have i missed something here "Deaths?" i may have missed it but i dont recall any deaths

im convinced this ( whatever it was/is) is a result of MF going in straight on the back of another treatment with no or very little timelapse between them
that two big sticks these fish were hit with in a ver short space of time

dunc

[Mattybkic]

Yes he's lost 5 fish Duncan.

I also have had similar issues, but got mine out and into my QT with less time in the treatment. I haven't lost any but knackered 3 of them atleat for definite.

Need to talk thru with you for advice. I think I know why but am still a little confused.

Speak soon

Matthew

[Spalders]

Hi Duncan - I haven't been able to post but I have been busy trying to save my fish. I will pm you as I don't think this is suitable for a public forum.
Dom.

[Mattybkic]

Spalders and I have been in regular communication since last Tuesday, as we have been experiencing similar issues, except fortunatley I have had no losses. We have been looking at all the symptoms and possible causes and do have one thing in common which is adding FMG.

Ok so here is the big mistake I have made.

I for some reason took it that the recommended dose for Malachite for FMG is half the standard dosage what is stated in Duncan's book. Please don't ask me how or why, but I have ballsed up! In Duncan's book it's the standard dose not half!

I carried out my 1st round FMG on my 13,000 G pond initially using A liquid brand Malachite. It has no percentage strength on the bottle, and after speaking to a number of people including 2 highly respected fish and dry goods suppliers after last Monday, I have been advised that my liquid Malchite was probably only 1%. When I carried out the first dosage on my main pond two weeks Monday ago, I added double the recommended dosage and added 20ml to 176 gallons not 10ml per 176 gallons

I had previously also done 3 rounds of FMG at this dosage on my QT only days before, using the liquid Malachite with no issues whatsoever. All the fish in my QT continually fed and I noticed no side effects. Infact the first round of FMG on my main pond was carried out as I applied my third round on the QT.

So after applying the first FMG on my main pond on the Monday I had noticed I had run out off the liquid Malachite. I then bought some crystal Malachite and followed the instructions on the bottle regarding adding water and quantity.

On the Saturday I followed the exact same procedure as before and mixed up my FMG to treat 13,000 gallons at 20ml per 176 gallons.........see where I 'm going here!

On the Sunday morning I noticed similar characteristics as has been noted above by Spalders. A good friend came over that afternoon, and on my understanding of the dosage rate I explained what I had done, but not realising the mistake I had made. We caught and scraped fish and found nothing.......to be expected. We decided to leave on a trickle which I did constantly until Monday evening. Whilst checking the fish Monday early morning there had appeared to be no more gulping of air and signs of improvement.

When I popped in later on the Monday afternoon, I realised things weren't so good and the s@h@i@t hit the fan. My friend came straight over and in a 3 hour window we eventually caught all 8 fish, all no bigger that 25cm out of the dark blue 13,000 G pond It was very difficult and stressful for all but we got them all out and into the QT in the end.

By the following morning there was no more gulping and come the evening all fish appeared to have been moving normally with the other fish in the QT. Over a week has passed and all fish still in the QT, are feeding sparingly and I have left a constant very slow trickle in going to help with the additional fish and possible detoxing of the affected fish.

3 fish, a Tancho, Shiro and Kohaku the smallest fish still have signs of decolouration, but I am told it should pick up.

So to finish I should have asked the question, as Spalders had asked before me adding the Malachite. Yes we both have similar symptoms, but I know where my problems lie, I overdosed and basically poisoned my fish.

Hope Spalders gets to the bottom of his issues soon.

Let my stupidIty and honesty be a lesson to anyone who potentially thought the same as I did, note the crystals are the STANDARD strength, so ensure you stick to the dosage rates stated, don't assume otherwise

Regards

Matthew