orp & contributing factors

Moderators: B.Scott, vippymini, Gazza, Manky Sanke

User avatar
chita
Hammer Head shark
Hammer Head shark
Posts: 268
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:45 pm
Location: UK

Post by chita »

Whilst your readings ar even slightly better than mine Gazza, the are commensurately so. TDS is lower and so accordingly is PH, all of which produces a higher ORP / REDOX. All of which ties in to the fact that my membranes (x3) require changing, so we're in sync Gazza.

Chi
Fish4Friends
Sandbar shark
Sandbar shark
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:38 pm
Location: Leeds
Contact:

Post by Fish4Friends »

Hi Gazza

The "shaking around" of the probe is introducing "an error" this is where I am going in the meter error thread! Fast water flow can also introduce this type of error!

I apologise that the information is a little slow in coming, but personal reasons are limiting my time for the thread at this moment!

But I hope this helps!

For any type of electronic measurement, as near stationary water as possible is the best place for measurement!
User avatar
chita
Hammer Head shark
Hammer Head shark
Posts: 268
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:45 pm
Location: UK

Post by chita »

As Graham has just highlighted, and as I have stated several times recently on a few related threads, moving water and test meters don't like each other.

Chi
User avatar
Duncan
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2883
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:40 pm
Location: west Midlands UK
Contact:

Post by Duncan »

Hi

As I feel the above post was meant for a response and I seldom like to disappoint, I’ll apologise up front if this offends anyone its not meant to by any means, I just had my world turned upside down for a week where I had to learn to work when folks are asleep been chasing this venue for the course and am knackered, so please don’t take offence if this is out there a bit



No in no way am I trying to say ORP does not matter, JFTR IT DOES, but what I was trying to say is at least lets not get carried away with it, its a guide to water quality and IMHO not worth chasing every last Mv as it is to volatile and variable a measure

So here are my thoughts and a little perspective

I see maybe getting on maybe 50 ponds a year for health visits and I am willing to bet 98% of them have never had an ORP reading above175 Mv and most are way less, and that includes the high end hobbyists amongst them. Indeed most have never heard of ORP and don’t say that proves my point because once I have pointed some basics out for them to watch and how to keep out of trouble, I seldom see them again maybe 5-10 % I go back to and this is not down to ORP meters just good old KISS and basics and all my work comes from referrals I don’t advertise

I am also willing to bet 85% of the good folks on this board and reading this board will never achieve more than 150-200 Mv’s despite all there hard work to do so

On know of at least four koi keepers that monitor ORP and keep consistent high ORP values or at least perceived values and they have what I would term "normal" health issues through a typical season (maybe two or three ulcer issues or simliar ETC) nobody is immune to this depsite high orp to that end, I know of a hobbyist who kept ORP values high Via Ozone and had the worst year on year ulcer issues I ever heard of despite jumping through all kinds of hoops to make sure no ozone got back to the pond and it was working properly (this was a pro built ozone system not just the ozone unit) his filter system was also extensive so that proves even when money is no object and you achieve the right thing you CAN screw it up big time and be worst off then if you never tried!

We now come to the other end of the spectrum I have visited ponds, indeed a relative of mine who has kept fish for many years (mixed pond) has a pond that is over stocked with big feeeeesh is about 1000 gallons total with a filter the size of a bread bin (those big boy all in one wondrous things about 24â€Â
User avatar
Duncan
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2883
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:40 pm
Location: west Midlands UK
Contact:

Post by Duncan »

gazza

just back from the garage with deionised water in tow Ph value 7 on the nail as expected

it matters little what your water is like the RO should sort it all good and bad your membrane is looking good cuz your tds is way down there

a membrane rejects dissolved ions but not dissolved gases which is why i ask if that reading comes up after a while when the co2 gases off

did you calibrate you Ph meter at two values? you must calibrate it at two differnt values they as near as i know all work this way

if you think your reading is going to be below 7 you must calibrate at 4 AND 7 calibration fluids if you think it going to be above 7 we use 7 and 10 calibration fluids
User avatar
Gazza
architeuthis moderator
architeuthis moderator
Posts: 5306
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:24 pm
Location: Essex,UK
Contact:

Post by Gazza »

Hi Dunc,

Yes i calibrated twice with two separate solutions and my unit does 4 & 7

I forgot to say great post Dunc and i understand where you are coming from,i have explained to many people many times that ORP is a great thing you know what your systems runs at and then you can see if something is wrong.
Fish4Friends
Sandbar shark
Sandbar shark
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:38 pm
Location: Leeds
Contact:

Post by Fish4Friends »

Hi Duncan

I believe in one respect that is one of the most profound posts I have seen in a long time!

However in one respect I have to differ! Whilst I agree that there may be a "a pissing contest about the miss readings that may or may not occur in the localized close proximity to the probe due to the current that makes the damn thing work in the first place." " as you expressed it" if people understand why and how differences in readings occur they can compensate to make the readings "of value" and not something that is vague and "maybe" of no value!

I ask one simple question? Why do a test if the result is doubtful?

Again I stress any meter used correctly, within the parameters supplied from the manufactures will provide “accurateâ€Â
User avatar
chita
Hammer Head shark
Hammer Head shark
Posts: 268
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:45 pm
Location: UK

Post by chita »

Phew!

I guess I should have factored in the shift effect before posting on that occasion Duncan, though I can say hand on heart my own comments to which you refer were meant in the best possible way.

I took your original point precisely as you intended it, but had concerns that the more innocent might not. I tried to reduce the possibility I saw for misinterpretation, obviously I did a poor job of delivering the message. Profound apologies for any any construed offence, none was intended.

Neither did I intend to state that any pond with a low ORP / REDOX would result in poorly fish, my sisters manages fine at around 180, albeit with my help. My point was intended to be that I have not observed personally such illnesses in high ORP / REDOX ponds, whereas all the cases of ulcers etc I have seen were in low ORP / REDOX ponds.

The primary difference here is that my experiences are limited to my own, my sisters and a handful of friends and neighbours ponds, some Koi some not. Whereas your own Duncan are on a vast scale by comparison, and you are absolutely bound to see a much wider range of pond keeping standards, which is one reason your opinions are sought.

On reflection it may have been more accurate had I stuck to the comment that increasing ORP / REDOX can only improve your water for the Koi, no if's or but's on that one.

I think we are beyond the playground antics stage, so I take no offence incidentally at your rebuttal, to which (having reread my post) you are entitled without doubt.

As to the meters and accuracy thing, I commend Graham for his willingness to share detailed information. For myself however I think I understand the meters and any ancilliary electrical effects of the environment sufficiently, and as stated in a previous post, believe like yourself the designers did too and made the necesary allowances. Scientific grade instruments they may not be, but they are still way more accurate than required for Koi keeping needs. It's wonderful what one can do even with a few resistors & cap's!

Duncan, the ORP / PH thing, like Gazza both of my PH meters are calibrated at dual points with 4 + 7, at absolutely the correct temps. Probes are rinsed in a seperate container of the "next" fluid when switching between 4 & 7, so no transfer of the first fluid to the second. I have the whole gambit of fluids, but 4 & 7 provide best accuracy for the operating range apertaining.

Whilst I had not previously questioned the low readings on the RO water too deeply, I have checked the meters not just by calibration but by " test" fluids also, so am happy with the readings. I am now curious to establish why the readings are low, though I won't lose sleep over it.

Chi
User avatar
Duncan
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2883
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:40 pm
Location: west Midlands UK
Contact:

Post by Duncan »

thanks guys for good responses

you'll forgive me if reply in the morning or late afternoon however
i am trying to get my body to dramatically adjust to normal sleep patterns before i screw it up and do nights again for another week
User avatar
chita
Hammer Head shark
Hammer Head shark
Posts: 268
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:45 pm
Location: UK

Post by chita »

Gazza, while I think about it, I wonder if the lower PH thing is due to the system we both use? 3 membranes will increase the effects Duncan refers to in his related response earlier, re gasses etc?

Secondly, another little experiment for you, I assume you have a decent UV unit, which like me you don't have a use for very often? Mine's a 55w unit and quite effective in use, or was around 2 years ago last time I needed to use it for a few weeks.

If you can try turning this on and monitor your ORP for a couple of weeks and report back I'd appreciate it. I'm not going to lead you by suggesting what you may find!

Chi
User avatar
Gazza
architeuthis moderator
architeuthis moderator
Posts: 5306
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:24 pm
Location: Essex,UK
Contact:

Post by Gazza »

Hi Chi,

Well you are correct i to have a 55w unit and its also about two years old and on the same bulb.....and not used!!

I will indeed switch it on today to see what happens :D
User avatar
chita
Hammer Head shark
Hammer Head shark
Posts: 268
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:45 pm
Location: UK

Post by chita »

I shall wait to hear if you see what I expect.

Chi
User avatar
Duncan
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2883
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:40 pm
Location: west Midlands UK
Contact:

Post by Duncan »

Hi

Thanks for the good replies

Graham I respect and am enjoying your writings on electronic meters so I a glad you are around

[quote]You said >
â€Â
co2
Nurse Shark
Nurse Shark
Posts: 62
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:37 pm

Post by co2 »

Hi all
Well what can I say I was hoping for a simplified explanation of orp? But it seems to be getting more complicated
Duncan you mention many ponds that you visit all with different orp readings.
All of these ponds will have different filtrations, some will rely on bacterial activity some will be more natural relaying on organisms some will be both.
If there are different types of filtration methods wouldn’t this account for this.
It’s the imbalance that produces ill health.

Does it not stand to reason that if the high orp approach would kill pathogens it would also kill the organisms that filter the water in a different way?
Many of these organisms which also feed on bacteria.
There may be many types of filters but three types of filtration?
So do we have to decide which approach before hand or is this a natural fluctuation.
John
User avatar
chita
Hammer Head shark
Hammer Head shark
Posts: 268
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:45 pm
Location: UK

Post by chita »

The question(s) you pose are actually quite complex, as the answers can vary with specific conditions. I would feel more comfortable with a scientific response by someone so qualified. I am not so qualified but do have a range of experiences apertaining, so will offer my simplistic thoughts, which will at least plug a gap until more fullfilling answers are forthcoming.

It is possible to percieve ORP / REDOX readings at a very simplistic level, so I will try to anunciate same. The measurement taken by ORP / REDOX equipment (allowing for algorythmic input) attests both to the purity or cleanliness of the water, and it's ability to inhibit bacterial proliferation. The latter of course by extrapolation of known data re the reduction of organics / bacteria etc by oxidation.

So, really two results for the price of one, the first, current cleanliness, being related to TDS, Salinity, EC and other potential contaminants, such being anything other than "pure" water. It appears to me from my readings over a few years that even toxins such as Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrates and phosphates etc are included in this range of potential contaminants.

The second being a prediction by additional extrapolation of the potential for sustenance of bacterium, and this for me is the killer app of the ORP / REDOX meter. Bad bacteria require crap to survive, high ORP / REDOX conditions indicate no crap, so potentially lower nasty levels.

With regard to the potential for high ORP / REDOX to reduce beneficial bacteria, I would see it as follows.

We are creating circumstances which are anathema to nasty bacteria, to achieve high ORP / REDOX figures we MUST remove all of the nasty bacteria supporters, mulm and silt deposits, in pond and in filters, and reduction of static water areas where bacteria can cling on and breed etc. This puts the ORP / REDOX up, but at the same time we have created the conditions that ENCOURAGE beneficial nitrifying bacteria, by the cleansing of our filters along with the pond. If our filters are literally set up as nitrifier hotels, with every encouragement from diverse media and plenty of oxygen, they will flourish regardless of the high ORP / REDOX, as the good bacteria like clean conditions, the absolute opposite to the requirements of the ideal conditions for the bad bacteria.

I confess to having cheated a little in the filter stakes, as I was undecided on "the best filtration system" I merged a few different technologies and media. This resulted in 4 filters and pumps, but it works for me and with little maintenance.

Chi
Post Reply