Soliciting opinions on KHV screening

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Do you support the BHP program as described?

Poll ended at Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:32 am

YES
24
96%
No
1
4%
 
Total votes: 25

Spike
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Soliciting opinions on KHV screening

Post by Spike »

Hobbyists,

I need some opinions. And, what better place than a koi board to come for those <grin>.

Project KHV is strongly considering financing a Koi Dealer Best Health Practices (BHP) Certification Program that would address KHV specifically. Toward that end, we are discussing alternatives within such a program.

In order for a program to be effective it needs two major aspects:
A. To be perceived as worth while, and
B. Substantial participation

Here’s a very brief description of the program we currently envision:

The project under consideration is one where a team of qualified veterinarians would develop a program with which koi dealerships may be certified to be operating under best health practices relating to koi herpesvirus. The program is intended to be implemented only by qualified veterinarians that are familiar with the materials developed. Those veterinarians will be granted free use of all program materials if they agree to only certify dealerships that meet the specified minimum requirements of the Program. Veterinarians will set their own fees for services rendered and certificates of compliance will be issued at their sole discretion.

The program materials will include a manual containing all the minimum requirements of the program including samples of each document required and will allow tailoring of the program to fit the individual circumstances of the various dealerships.

Additionally, a web site is planned containing information and promotional materials for the Program including how dealers and veterinarians may enroll in the Program

We have reviewed the scientific literature, conferred with the science folk, the dealers, the vets and to a certain extent, the hobbyists. This is an attempt to gain more input from the hobbyists.

In structuring our BHP program, we have thus far taken the “bestâ€Â
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Post by Bern »

Spike,

I am for it 100%.

I think the time has come for some realism instead of rhetoric.

There are too many different interpretations of what good quarantine procedures are. A set of published Best Practises will clarify the issues for the hobbyist and dealer.

Obviously, once implemented they will need to be monitored. That will create another issue, but let's lay the foundations first.

rgds BERN
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StuW
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Post by StuW »

It would perhaps bring back some confidence in the whole system of selling Koi and if all parties accepted that it was a work in progress and would be refined as research found new tests etc and did not just stand still at the point of instigation I think it is one positive way forewards. Being pro active has to be better than burying ones head in the sand.
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Post by Jules »

I think anything that promotes the sale of healthy koi including parameters to isolate sick fish and destroy them can only improve customer confidence. With shadows over the health of koi and posibilities of infecting your collection any thing that assists the hobbyist confidence when introducing clean koi can only help the hobby and the industy move forward.

Jules
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Duncan
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Post by Duncan »

Spike

you know i think its a great idea! while i am not 100% confident in heat ramping as a tool, i am constantly saying to folks its better than nothing and its about the best and most cost effective detection process we have at the moment. which i think is the point you are trying to make

i still think Elisa shoud be added to this protocol and further that dealers and hobbyists should operate a zero KHV Antibody tolerance but, Rome was not built in a day and we have to start somewhere because the industry sure ain't gonna do it for us, if we wait for them the hobby will be in melt down by then
Please bear in mind though to even do what you suggest ( the basics)takes huge amounts of quaratine facility and space and resource for a busy dealerships.

For instance if a dealers has shipment coming in from 5 breeders at one time thats 5 adiquate quarantines they must have,. but thats a moot point if the shipping agent keeps them all together before the flight and does not operate strict quarantine, so this may need some tracking back to source and refining there.

so yes and i would love to help introduce it here

come of folks at this time, 75 views and only 8 votes!! you may not have something to say but you must have an opinion. It cost you nothing to vote in the poll, just log in to vote this is your chance to voice an opinion on the subject without having to write anything down
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Bob Hart
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Post by Bob Hart »

OK Dunc, my thoughts on this.

You've been saying for some while that heat ramping doesnt work, only Elisa testing is 'virtually guaranteed'.

Also I cant see how a Vet can guarantee that a Dealer is doint what he is now 'licenced' to be doing, without checking every shipment and every system.

A few years back I think it was the PKDA (Proffesional Koi Dealers Association) was set up and this had a certain amount of 'rules' that were followed by all of these dealers and therefore you could 'trust' them. I know it was self regulated, but I knew a dealer who was a memeber who never even quananteened his Koi, sold them strainght out of the box/pond on the night they came in.

So I'm a sceptic that such a 'system' could be introduced and then managed. And if it was it would only be heat ramping.

Only 1 person has done it right so far and that is Mike Snaden, by Elisa testing. There are a few others following Mike's testing though. I'd prefer that any 'scheme' had elisa testing at it's heart and that would mean very few dealers would comply.

I also dont think it would matter to the new Koi kepper, who just wouldnt understand what it meant. They are the ones who are needed to be protected and I dont know how it could be done for those. Garden centre's seem exempt from everything.

If the whole thing was legislated by Goverment, then we'd at least have some teeth.

Sorry to rant on a bit, just got carried away.

And I dont mean anything against what you are doing Spike, but whatever is to be done has to be done properly and be fool proof.
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Post by tomc »

I read this several times. And have yet to vote.

My concern is how generally perceived this program would be by the buying public. Let me clarify:

* Heat ramping is not, as far as I am aware, an assured method of bringing out the virus. Though for sure, it is better than doing nothing.
* So a program that then moves to further testing if issues are observed is already flawed in my logic (Yes, I know PCR testing would require koi to be sacrifed so PCR testing has to be a test that is made after suspicion/issues are found).

So how will BHP certified dealers "advertise" this? I can be sure that it won't be long before some will be saying (if not openly) that they are KHV free and certified for this.

Sorry, am rambling, long day, but I think you get my views as to why I am not jumping immediately to a "YES".

That said, I think the desire, energy and commitment put into such concepts is entirely supportable.

Tom
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Post by B.Scott »

HI Spike,
Like others on the board I applaud any efforts to increase the bio-security of koi being sold from dealers to the public.

The two aspects that I think need to be addressed that first of all some mechanism needs to be put into place to ensure proper follow-up of the terms required by the BHP certificate to be sure once certification is achieved that standards are kept up to required levels. While I am sure that Vets involved are more than capable of dictating and ascertaining the standards required for certification, I wonder if they will have the time and energy to conduct spot checks needed to ensure continued compliance once the initial certification is complete and the money for it has been paid. Not anything to do with vets being dishonest but rather being busy people with a hectic job where priorities need to be set!

The other factor I think needs to be addressed is that it should be made clear from the start that a BHP certificate is NEVER a substitute for quarantine protocols for the buyer. I'm sure you agree that at the end of the day, when you purchase a fish it's a case of the buck stops here. Each and every time we buy a fish it is up to US THE BUYER to quarantine and convince ourselves to the best of our abilities that the fish we bought are clear of disease and parasites despite any protocols used before the fish was bought. It is after all the hobbyist and not the dealer who will suffer if a mistake is made. The BHP certificate, welcome though it my be, must be seen as nothing more than an extra barrier that will reduce the chance of KHV infected fish filtering down the chain and infecting the end user and never a guarantee that it will not.

B.Scott
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Post by boogatee »

edited by me ... as it has offended ... and that was NEVER my intention - "nit picking" was directed at my initial perception of what was proposed - i.e. the flaws in it - not at anyone else’s view, it's not my place to question anyone’s view.

… and I don’t feel like having a peeing match. :roll:

So I apologise to anyone who feels offended.
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Post by Gazza »

I am all for some kind of certificate but it has to have some back up to make sure that dealers are sticking to the set guidelines as this would "hopefully" mean there would be a lot more healthier fish out there :D

But how could you police this would be the problem and what happens if for some reason you do get a fish that is sick or parasitic then what :?: :?: who is going to do anything or do they get struck off the list :?: :?: would that stop them from trading :?: :?: :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :?

Its a tough one i am all for a scheme that gives the hobbyist healthy fish but would it stop KHV :?:
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Post by tomc »

I am not at this stage convinced (as a member of the public) that such a scheme will deliver long-term benefits unless (a) the approach is valid and (b) the approach can be validated and monitored. Difficult as we have pointed out. That is not to say I am not a supporter, but I see problems.

Tom
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Post by Duncan »

hi
OK Dunc, my thoughts on this.
Its ok bob you go for it son, vent your spleen, that’s what democracy is all about
You've been saying for some while that heat ramping doesnt work, only Elisa testing is 'virtually guaranteed'.
No I have not said this! what I said is: it’s mowhere near 100% effective I.E. it does not always produce the required and anticipated effect even when there are KHV AB + fish present and potential carriers .
Also I cant see how a Vet can guarantee that a Dealer is doint what he is now 'licenced' to be doing, without checking every shipment and every system.
Easy, random regular inspections for facility and records. If dealers have the facilities in place nobody is stupid enough not to utilise them.

Also I gotta a wake up call for all our UK vets.. you wanted responsibility for aquatic animals.. well guess what guys? You have now got it! either get with the program or get out of it!!!!! KHV is no different to distemper or parvo virus in as far as you guys are concerned , so instead of the Royal veterinary college sitting on their fat a**es, help find a cure, its now expected of you! you wanted it, you got it!
A few years back I think it was the PKDA (Proffesional Koi Dealers Association) was set up and this had a certain amount of 'rules' that were followed by all of these dealers and therefore you could 'trust' them. I know it was self regulated, but I knew a dealer who was a memeber who never even quananteened his Koi, sold them strainght out of the box/pond on the night they came in.
Pass! This was a joke right from the start it was a dealers road show and fizzled out about as fast as road shows did
So I'm a sceptic that such a 'system' could be introduced and then managed. And if it was it would only be heat ramping.
Spike wanted to add this, quote ,

“Hi,

I wanted to add that the BHP will outline minimum requirements for
certification. It will NOT preclude any additional testing, e.g., it
will not prohibit or even suggest not doing ELISA testing. MOF, I'm
going to somehow try to encourage vets to add a parasite clean-up to
this program w/o including it in the minimum requirements.

Cheers,
Spike

.
If the whole thing was legislated by Goverment, then we'd at least have some teeth.
Careful you may get what you asked for! Think about it?

heres my perspective

I really don’t understand some of the negativity and scepticism here, if that’s what it is.

Both the question and the answer is really very simple and basic, it’s not quantum physics

The answer is YES or NO, plain and simple. Do we do nothing? Or do we do something how ever small?

As long as the folks that are funding this don’t object to the hobby reaping benefits that may be gained from this, while they foot the $ bill. I don’t see a â€Â
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Post by tomc »

Hi Chris

Sorry, had no intentions of trying to stiffle debate or discussion - in fact encourage it! Damn electronic messages always lose intent! or result in misinterpretation as you pointed to.

Have cut the head off my initial response.

Best, Tom
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Post by boogatee »

Unfortunately I can't remember exactly what I posted .... but in essence.

Dunc if you can recover the actual post please do - that's fine with me
I think I wrote:I was a work and voted a resounding YES!! now that I am at home my 2p's worth. rather than nit pick the details, I thought it was essentially a good idea and one that should be supported, so I had voted Yes.
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BHP specification up on Project KHV web site

Post by Spike »

BHP specification up on Project KHV web site

Link: http://www.akcaprojectkhv.org/CompleteBHPSpec-mod1.pdf

Cheers,
Spike
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