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Simply Koi and More Koi • View topic - Now thats what I call Sumi

Now thats what I call Sumi

Moderators: B.Scott, vippymini, Gazza, Manky Sanke

Postby Gazza » Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:55 pm

The hard and soft water thing will always be the same just like the heating or not heating its a tough one for sure :D

I also think that there are some many things that all have to be in place to help which is good filtration,food,husbandry and water and not forgetting some genetics if we start to get all this in line then you would like to think the fish will hopefully develop :D
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Postby tomc » Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:12 pm

Stuart

Parent stock are often (not always) butt ugly as compared to their beautiful offspring. But they have the qualities of great skin, body structure etc. Here are two of Omo's parent stock. I doubt if either female is one that many of us would jump up to have swimming around in our displays.

I suspect that the koi originally posted by Andy may be from the Tokumitsu utsuri set.

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Postby sukoi50 » Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:04 pm

Hi guys, the shiroji on 'Lisa Davis' is quite superb and as Lisa has said she was grown on at the normal rate and not heated in anyway. She was 32cm when we bought her in June 2005 and at the end of last year was 44cm. I dont heat the pond that much in winter and just keep it ticking over.

Here is the Omosako Shiro we bought a while ago

Image

We showed her at South East last year and she was 2nd. Unfortunately she didnt travel well and was quite stressed.

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Postby James Pond » Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:33 pm

Hi all

Just an observation on the coloured/clear water theories.

It's well known in angling that fish in coloured water are paler than fish that live in clear water. For instance carp in a crystal clear lake tend to be very dark, in coloured water they are significantly paler, the same applies to Tench which range from a pale beige to very dark green, almost black.

I'm sure in the wild it is at least partly down to natural predator protection, as it's harder for a dark fish in clear water to be seen from above against a dark bottom.

How this applies to 'man made' Koi i'm not sure (if it does apply at all) maybe there is still some genetic code residual in Koi that tells fish to 'darken up' in clear water (hence the sumi intensifies) and lighten up in coloured water?

Light penetration in clear water probably is in the mix somewhere as well, as well as genetics, water chemistry, etc etc!
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Postby Cuttlebrook Koi » Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:48 pm

Hi James

When Mark was at Kamihata's, Tanaka, the farm manager, showed him how the sumi on low grade Showa changed in density depending on the background they were culled against at first cull. Sanke, however, put in the same situation don't change. This shows that the cell structure (chromataphors) of Sanke and Showa sumi are different. With the lower grade darker chagoi we have found that the same applies as in the Showa. If you place one of these Chagoi on a white background they quite quickly go very pale and they look like a greenish chagoi with good reticulation, but if you place them into a black background, they go pretty much black.

Hi Sue

Nice Shiro! :wink:

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Postby andyb » Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:22 pm

Hi Sue

Lovely shiro there, I have not shown mine yet ( I don't think the body shape is good enough at the moment bit front heavy )

Tom you have touched a bit of a nerve with me regarding Oomo shiro's.

Now I can fully understand parent stock being used for maybe single attributes, say a showa with little sumi being used because the sumi that is there is of exceptional quality etc etc.

But to use a shiro parent that has the fundamental flaw being benni is so frustrating.

Her are three of my shiro's the smaller two are Oomo, the fist one I can't give away ( obviously ) the second is a rather nice Tosai ( the sumi is really starting to come through now - bit of an ugly of duck at the moment :wink: ) and the third she's a bit of a bruiser, but has a cracking character.

The big girl is Sakai, no signs of any underline Hi.

But can I be certain that the second fish won't start erupting hi everywhere, no, not when Oomo is using parents with like that.

I as the end customer feel that I am being properly ripped off.
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Postby B.Scott » Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:29 pm

What are the ages of these pictures Andy?

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Postby gingeletiss » Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:30 pm

Andy

I think the second one is a right cracker :wink: :wink: :)
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Postby tomc » Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:53 pm

Hi Andy

Well, I too have Omo shiro swimming around that has secondary hi (see below). Actually same place as your koi 1. I live in hope that it'll regress at some point (the dealer told me it would! LOL. He would wouldn't he!). And I (muggins) bought her with it. LOL.

Now that said, the koi that we all were wow'd at the All Japan (your initial post) has that copper secondary hi. I wonder if it lost out because of it in Japan?

A quote from an article with Omo:
"

Interviewer: This koi (the tokumitsu parent) has quite a bit of hi, didnn't it?

Omo: Indeed it did. It was rather old when I bought it, but it had a great body and excellent quality sumi.

Interviewer: Is this hi a genetic trait that ges passed along to the children?

Omo: That's a tough question. Sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't. It didn't get passed along to that many children though. Just because it has a little hi doesn't always mean that the hi will show up in the children though.

"

He goes onto conclude that this isn't the result of a showa spanning. [Source: Koi Bito, issue 3]

Doesn't really answer a lot, does it?

I personally think shiros are the most risky of any purchase. But yes, I'd be happier to know the parents were a bit cleaner than these.

I am past my frustration with my Omo shiro. [Well, Andy - you were the one who told me I had jack all chance of ever seeing the hi regress!!]

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Postby Bob Hart » Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:22 pm

Tom,

Dont know if I've seen the pic of your Shiro before, did it have better solid Sumi previously?
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Postby Gazza » Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:28 pm

Ive seen some OMO Shiro that had Sumi similar to your Tom that ended up a stunning fish with deep Sumi,i just wish i could find the pictures :roll:

We should start a Shiro thread going and see what we all have :?:
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Postby tomc » Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:43 pm

Hi Bob

Haven't very often posted her! Everyone screams "secondary hi" and goes running for the hills! :D [Not that I blame them]

This is her Japan photo after a season in a mud pond.

I will see if at the weekend or Friday I can drag her out and picture her. But she is very skittish. She looks nothing like this now (about 15 months later) except the secondary hi! A lot of the sumi you see is "up" and a lot you can't see is up. That white head, isn't white.

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Postby Bob Hart » Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:52 pm

So mostly good news then Tom, just need some Sumi to cover the Hi, which is what you must he hoping and waiting for!

I asked as I had a nice Omosako, where the sumi receded back to grey and a couple of years later still hasnt returned! Wondered if yours had done the same, but yours has in fact done the opposite.
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Postby tomc » Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:55 pm

Yep, my sumi came up very quickly. Now, I have avoided bowling her (v jumpy) so I don't know how deep the sumi is but it has certainly come out.

Omo has at least 5 parent stock so it depends which spawning you have. Mine is from the peppery sumi spawning (sorry don't know the name of the pairing) but it's not the two I showed earlier.

As I said, I think shiro's are by far the biggest risk of the "top 4" because they are so unstable and so skittish. Even if mine didn't have secondary hi and you all thought "wow!" I could never show her - she'd go pink.

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Postby Bob Hart » Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:12 pm

Mine is from Hakuba
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