Ted's Pond upgrade

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fatherted
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Ted's Pond upgrade

Post by fatherted »

I am doing a major upgrade to the pond this year and wanted to post my progress but more importantly quiz you all for information! The current pond is OK but not deep enough, is a messy liner and has a side entry drain to the filters.

[img]http://www.koivista.com/files/fatherted/939 ... re_030.jpg[/img]

The fish have moved out, I have drained most of the water, dug up the adjacent plants, removed the edgings and freed the liner from the wall. As soon as it stops raining I will be hiring a skip.

I really don't know much about returns so wanted to get some early thoughts from anyone who can help. Anticipated layout is:

[img]http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a280/vr6t ... ayout4.jpg[/img]

Everything that is GREEN is already there, permanent and pretty much immovable. All Comments are very welcome.
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Post by Gazza »

Hi Ted,

I think you have my input already lol :wink:
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Post by chita »

For me to answer this in detail would take hours! But briefly, multiple returns, at least two primary flow directions in an opposing pattern to prevent circular flow.

High turnover through multiple filters, helps create the above and low settlement..

Soft water, low TDS and low PH, high ORP / Redox.

Good design will produce all of the above, resulting in good water and healthy Koi.

Incidentally, I know this can get a bit repetitive and hence boring, so I'll go no further, but anyone requiring detailed info please ask.

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Post by fatherted »

Thanks for all the info Chita but steady up a little - I am tackling one design problem at a time and it is just the returns I am planning at the moment.
But briefly, multiple returns, at least two primary flow directions in an opposing pattern to prevent circular flow.
OK, first, multiple returns. I can only fit in the two filters as I am very stuck for space between us and next door but I could split the return from the multibay into two. This would however reduce the pressure. What is more important - multi returns or pressure?

Next, two primary flow directions. Are we talking about opposing returns being on at the same time or valving them to swap over? I thought a circular flow was generally what we were aiming for?

All comments / info appreciated.
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Post by Bob Hart »

Ted,

I'd rethink the veggie filter. There are always fines in any water and the veggie filters are great at catching these and collecting them = Crap in the filter! Have been there and done that and it was a horrible mess. TT is good though.
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Post by B.Scott »

Ditto with Bob. Don't like veggie filters!
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Post by Gazza »

Yes a TT for me Ted :D
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Post by fatherted »

I have been considering the veggie filter as I have been utterly frustrated with the cost of 'managing' the blanket weed last year. Not totally sold on the idea yet and may not have room anyway but

:x I HAVE GOT TO STOP THE DAMN STUFF FROM GROWING :x

Any thoughts on return positioning B Scott and Bob?
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Post by chita »

Unfortunately the concept of circular flow is flawed, but of course we do need flows which will keep crap on the move towards drains.

In the event you have two returns only, much depends on the pump rates, so if you can provide those it'd help.

Off the top without those figures, consider that two good returns will work better than three trickles. Until you provide flowrates for each pump I'd use one either side at one end of the pond, both flowing in the same direction but down opposite sides of the pond. The two flows should then cause currents which meet at the end, stopping the circular flow and causing eddies and a return current down the centre. This should keep most debris moving without causing a complete venturi current, which contrary to some suggestions is not healthy in most ponds.

The ideal location for a drain would be in a central position at the same end as the returns, or dependent on pond geometry, near the actual centre. In the ideal scenario where three or more good returns are available, the third would assist the central merged returning current down the centre towards the drain. Alternatively you could do as I have and add a submersible pump sat on the bottom at that point to assist the flow to the main drain, wherever it is.

I had a circular flow for a few years, it's not the best option, varying flows as described but carefully managed for optimum synergies are the ultimate in a small pond. (less then 5000 gallons) Even in larger ponds the principles are appliccable but not always as essential, subject to stocking levels. One day I will find the time to draw diagrams which others beside myself can comprehend!

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Post by fatherted »

Thanks for all that Chi. I have an aquamax 10000 that I was going to use on the multibay. I was wondering about splitting that return into two and could fire them down each side.

To maximise flow from this I have even considered using a seperate pump for UV etc to maintain the maximum power from the 10000.
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Post by chita »

what gallonage is the pond to be Ted?

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Post by chita »

By way of pre-emptive strike I would guess between 2000 and 3000 gallons. In which case a 10000 lph pump (2200 gph) is inadequate by my expectations, this is the most frequent mistake I see in pond keeping.

I use 1 x Aquamax 15000, (3300 gph)output split and feeding 600 gph to multibay and 2000 gph to shower, the rest is lost in the pipework. 1 x ITT Marlow AG8 - 2250 gph, feeding cartridge filter from skimmer. 1 x Speck Badu Top 12 - 2250 gph, feeding 18" sandfilter.

In addition to this I still have a 1650 gph pump sat on the bottom to aid current flow and particle removal, not to mention oxygen assimilation. My pond is just under 2000 gallons including pipework and filters.

I know this may seem over the top, but it's how I get the results I get for very little ongoing effort. My reason for emphasising these flowrates is to impress upon you how important flow rates and currents are, especially in smaller ponds. It's important to apply real science to pond design in small ponds, the silly antiquated idea that once per 2 hours turnover is ok for koi needs putting to bed, it's fine for goldfish though.

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Post by fatherted »

Thanks for the pre emptive strike Chita! I am expecting to be about 3000 gallons depending on how things work out. Last year I bought the biggest filter I could fit into the space I had which is a '3000 gallon' multibay and have set up a gravity system.

I know that I can never have enough filtration so plan to do some add ons over time. I was planning on a minimum of a trickle tower on the skimmer line but this and any other upgrades will come later.

I have calculated the multibay holds about 540 litres of water in total and the the aquamax says 150 lpm max. I am worried that this will turn over the filter far too quickly - in theory this could be every 4 minutes or so!

I am trying to balance a steady rate through the filter with getting a good return. Can I win?
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Post by Gazza »

Hi Ted,

You will be surprised what the flow rates go down to when you start adding bends in the pipe work.

The flow will depend on the size of pipe you use and the amount of bends you put in and if possible use 2 x 45 or swept 90's
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Post by chita »

I have a problem or two with the maths here Ted, could you please consider the following and clarify. The following quote is from your previous post ted:

"I have calculated the multibay holds about 540 litres of water in total"

That's a very small amount of water for a filter you say is capable of handling a 3000 gallon pond Ted. I'd suggest a 1000 gallon pond as being nearer the mark, so could you advise the filter make and model please?

Next quote:

"and the aquamax says 150 lpm max. I am worried that this will turn over the filter far too quickly - in theory this could be every 4 minutes or so!"

Ok, so 150lpm, that's around 9000 lph, and the pond would be around 13640 ltrs. So that'd turn the pond over around every 90 minutes, not sure where you got every 4 minutes from.

And all of that assumes the pump is connected to the filter by a 3" length of 3" pipe! Just a few bends and a few feet of pipe will drop the output by around 25%, in the real world you'll be lucky to get 65% of the max rated flow on an average installation. I would not expect a turnover better than once every 2 hours, if you're very lucky.

Which is inadequate in most situations, so i'd stick the 10,000 on a skimmer, shower, trickle filter or for economy the cheapie sieve box filter, and get a serious pump for the main filter. With the 10,000 on another filter an Aquamax 16,000 would do nicely on the main filter, and would provide decent returns. This and the 10,000 return would do a decent job of keeping particles in suspension and hence into the filter systems.

To put some perspective on that, this would still be way below my own optimised turnover rates, but would be just about acceptable. I would urge you to reconsider the priorities, turnover is paramount. Until I know what filter you have I cannot comment on it's turnover capabilities. I would forget the veggie filter, high maintenance to run them correctly.

Chi
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