Chi hows the UV & ORP

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Gazza
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Chi hows the UV & ORP

Post by Gazza »

As some of you know Chi and myself have been playing around with what happens to the ORP (REDOX) of the pond with the UV Off or On.

Well after turning my UV on my ORP gradually started to rise slowly and increased to 350,360 and then the BW started to grow i left for a while but turned it off last week when i treated the pond balance.

The ORP has still gradually rose and todays has been on 377 which i thinks is not bad :D
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Post by dho »

Hi Gazza,

an ORP reading of 377 is pretty amazing, so good in fact I am a little suspicious. I know you are running RO on your system but it still seems very high to me. You are not running a ozone system are you?

Have you cleaned the probe recently? I know when I use to have my ozone on I used to have to clean the probe at least once a week otherwise the reading seems to climb by itself.

On the other hand if your reading is truly 377 then I must say I am very impressed in deed.

David.
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Post by chita »

I would rather this question came in a week or so Gazza, as I've had a minor blip which as yet I cannot explain with any certainty, but I'll update you anyway.

As I expected your ORP rose after turning on the UV, as did my own, but fortunately to date the BW only responded with growth of around 20% - 25%, and there it's stayed. As I had very very little at the start, the current level is more than acceptable, it's still far less than the level I would normally consider reducing.

My ORP reached 388, where it remained for around 2 weeks, then the weather started to worsen, and I replaced my cover which I had removed previously when the weather improved slightly.

Then I replaced my RO membranes, which incidentally have been reduced in price by RO-MAN from 50 ish to around 36 ish, commendable you'd think. Unfortunately they are most certainly not the same Membranes, after fitting whilst output did improve to a level even higher than expected, TDS was now 10 as opposed to the original membranes 0 to 2.

System pressure reduced immediately from 90 psi ish to 55 psi ish, output was measured at 125 gpd, which at a water input temp of 6.8 is very high. The formula offers 95 gpd at this temp, so obviously the new membranes are different, providing higher output but at the cost of purity. The membranes obviously offer less flow resistance, which allows higher production, and results in the lower system pressure reading.

I do not particularly see this as a major problem at this moment, I will be able to offer more clinical judgement when the input water temp reaches 14 ish, so that I can compare with earlier records. I need to establish whether the membranes achieve higher output at that temp than did the previous set, which were recorded for several months in that temp range.

If the membranes do provide improved production then I can compensate for the higher product TDS by adding less mains water of course.

Now for my minor problem.

ORP / REDOX has fallen in the last few days to 374, and of course there's no way I can ascertain whether that's down to putting the cover back on, which I suspect, or the increased TDS of the product water, or other, for example was most of the ORP increase due to protracted cold spells, then when it warmed up a little down it went? I think not though as I'm heated and it's totally stable at 17c, so impervious to ambient variations one would assume. I Therefore think taking the cover off and on again had a large part to play.

I have also adjusted the mains element of my trickle feed(s) to compensate for the higher TDS product, so I think it's down to the cover and the resultant reduction in surface exchange. I am not going to turn off my UV now until I can remove the cover again, so that I have a "constant" to measure results against.

My hope and expectation is that when I remove the cover the ORP / REDOX will rise again to it's previous 387 ish, Then I can remove the UV to establish if that will reduce ORP again, as I expect.

Incidentally Gazza, that's a fab unaided ORP, it just shows what can be achieved with a little extra effort. Albeit like my own it is benefitting considerably from the colder weather at the mo, probably around 20 points, but that's still some achievement.

Consider in depth the effects of ORP via P.P. on micro organisms, achieved quickest and safest around 450 to 475 ORP / REDOX reading. Now consider that adverse bacterial blooms are more likely at lower ORP / REDOX levels of say less than 200, a constant reading of 350 or over has to be huge health benefit. It's a little like a low level permanent dose of P.P. when compared to an average pond reading of 200 or so.

Keep it up Gazza, I'm totally convinced it contributes more to koi health than any other single aspect I can name at the mo.

Incidentally, I just got some of the twin seal pods, fed up of the standard single seals, they are toooo easy to distort, especially on the sediment unit which is changed 4 weekly.

Chi
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Post by chita »

David, I can assure you 370+ is possible with effort and a very good pond and filter "system", good filters alone are only part of the story. Filters and ancilliary equipment must work harmoniously with the rest of the system for ultimate results, and i'ts not possible to clarify that statement in a post of less than a few pages. I will though attempt to support Gazza's readings, but to do that I must first qualify why I think I can do that, or it's just another "me too" call.

When I first transferred my use of ORP / REDOX from aquariums to koi pond some 4 years ago I was disheartened, at least! The two scenario's do not equate, I spent the next 2 years re learning water keeping! Achieving high ORP / REDOX is easy in an aquarium, where you can quickly gain control of every element of the environment, not so in a pond!

When I finally got my pond water over the 350 mark I also was suspicious still, even though I had now learned the vagaries of the tool I still doubted it in this situation. So I bought another, which is a system I've deployed for years, two of everything means I can check the checkers for proof positive.

I have every related calibration fluid know to man, and all the proper cleaning fluids, I maintain surgical cleanliness levels around my instruments at all times. I am pedantic to a degree about calibration, which is not an area alien to me, I have an oscilloscope, several pieces of complex electronic transmission equipment, plus digital and RF test meters allied to another hobby. I have spent some 30 years calibrating radio transmission equipment to very high standards within that hobby, in short I am very competant in the area of instrument usage & calibration.

If I say I have a reading of 388 ORP / REDOX I have, because of this and because I have followed Gazza's progress over some months, I am confident that his reading is precisely what he says it is.

I have gone to the trouble of being detailed and precise in this post for one reason, it's essential that keepers understand and accept that high ORP / REDOX and the resultant benefits are achievable in the real world. There are some keepers who have ORP / REDOX meters and do not use them due to a variety of problems, not least of which their alleged instability, which can be overcome with persistance. Because of the huge benefits of High ORP / REDOX levels, I would like to think we can encourage everyone to consider ORP / REDOX meters as a must. I am quite happy to explain in detail how to get the best from the equipment, it's vagaries and how to overcome them to anyone who cannot find that info in previous related threads and is interested.

Chi
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Post by dho »

As I said if the reading as correct then I am more than a little impressed. If both you and Gazza are getting that kind of readings then I suspect that both of you can't be wrong. Well done, it is much better than I ever managed. I think mine was hovering around 240 to 280 range but haven't checked for a while. Must get that ORP probe out and see what the reading is!

Actually to put a redox reading of 370+ into perspective, when I was running an ozone I think the maximum it was set to 400, so you guys are getting what getting readings that are close to those running ozone. That takes some doing. Definitely not something to be sneezed at!

Running a pond with a ORP of 370+, have any of you guys had any bacterial problems. I suspect you won't at all but I remember Gazza and his shiro with bacterial problems. Was that before the high ORP?

What do you guys think is the major contributing factor to achieving such high ORP? Maybe we can all learn a little bit more on this fascinating subject. Chi, I know you have a massive turn over in your pond. I suspect Gazza doesn't have such a big turn over. I know both you guys are using RO. Can you guys remind me what you have as filters again? (Too lazy to look it up :oops: !!)

Cheers,

David.
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Post by poey »

hi
i think a high flow rate through the filters is a large contributing factor to obtaining a high ORP,on my 5000gal pool, i run around 9000gph through showers,around 2000gph through static k1 on the skimmer.my ORP stays around 320.this is with no settlement on the showers,plus no UV.
i would say the largest increase in ORP i have seen to date was when i installed the static k1 on the skimmer,prior to this my orp was around 290,if this was due to the use of static k1 or the increase in flow from the skimmer circuit i don't know?
cheers Dave.
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Post by Gazza »

Hi Guys,

Thanks Chi for the explanations as always spot on :D

David,

I work hard at the pond trying to make sure it is always clean i still carry out regular maintenance through the winter....even today in the rain :?

My filters consist of four in line vortex units first is static K1 as settlement then the next two are heavily aerated K1 (over 100lts in each one) and the last one is matting,this is all turned over by a Sequence 750.I then also have a large DATT (trickle Tower) which takes 3 boxes of BHM which runs on the skimmer line so clean water which is also pumped bu a Sequence 750.

I have never checked the output as my returns are below the water but the pumps are rated at 2100gph i think so my pond should turn over quick enough and it all seems to work OK :wink:

The Shiro was when i had hard water and was just starting to change the filtration around and concentrate on water quality a bit more.

I have however did think that has never been that high before so even made sure that battery was OK and changed it (even though its only been in a couple of weeks) and have now got a mains adapter and some ORP fluid for checking the probe which will be done as soon as i get time :D
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Post by chita »

I think I must find the time to collate all of my posts on ORP / REDOX and water keeping, if I then add useful input from other posters we could make up quite a useful reference section.

I have no doubts whatsoever that high turnover helps a lot, I tried everything else prior to going that route with some success, but got stuck around 280. I initially assumed that simply increasing the flow through my existing multibay would help, it didn't. We need to use at least two filters, preferably one for each aspect of filtration. IMHO that's one for the primary removal of large matter, that'd be the vortex then. Now something to remove smaller debris directly from where it's suspended in the water column, in came the sand filter with midwater intake. next something to remove surface particles and dust, a cartridge filter on the skimmer does this job well, and if you get everything else right there will be a fair amount of small particulate matter being pushed around the water column by the currents, much of this "dust" will also end up in the skimmer.

Finally we need a good quality bio hotel, a place full of only good clean "bedding" for the nitrifiers, which do not like dirty houses, no mechanical filtration as such should take place in this bio convertor. It's important to remember the term bio convertor, too many refer to it as a filter, which clouds the issue somewhat. It is not a filter, thinking of it as such will lead to bad habits which will defeat the object, this is a mini scientific laboratory for the culturing and nurturing of certain useful bacteria.

Additionally I must stress that high turnover alone will not do the trick, you must also have good enough currents in the pond to ensure no static areas. The next step is to ensure that no settlement takes place in the pond. Check how much faeces or other debris you can recover from the pond bottom in a week. If it's able to cover more than the surface of a large dinner plate it's unlikely you will reach beyond 320 to 330.

The next step is to consider not just how much filtration you have but what type, and then how it is deployed. One thing I learned is that one type of filtration is limiting, as is one type of media, also one return is next to useless, you need at least 4 returns to create suitable currents with, and that's a minimum. These returns must not be set at the same entry angles, they should go approximately but not precisely in the same direction, but at slightly different vertical angles. this causes eddies and breaks up the undesirable circular current. An additional current along the centre of the pond floor, if correctly positioned will then break up the pattern totally, I use a submerged pump on the pond bottom for this.

Consider then your methods of filtration, the mechanics of the system, for example I use a vortex, a multibay, a small shower, a sand filter and a cartridge filter on the skimmer, plus a mains water filter and RO unit. Just like the parts in a car engine each element of filtration has it's own place and task to perform, working together to produce the required result.

This is a synopsis only, to give those who may be considering the possibilities an insight into where you have to go to achieve an ORP / REDOX of 370+. The good news is that most of the kit required is available very cheaply second hand, try koi forums and ebay.

Gazza, I adapted a multi voltage transformer very early in my ORP meter days, I suspected the batteries were adding to the instability of the meter at that time. I removed the 9v PP9 battery terminals from an old radio and fitted them to the transformer, which has several voltage settings.

David, I do not recall Gazza's turnover, but I will wager it's well above once every 2 or 3 hours, and that he has good in pond currents and diverse media. As with any good meal there are numerous recipe's for success, but some rules must be adhered to.

I personally have not seen a sign of any unwanted bacteria since reaching 350 ORP / REDOX.

Chi
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Post by Gazza »

Hi All,

well amonst many other things i managed to get out and mess around and do some stuff and me maintance today.....even with the rain :roll:

My first job was to clean my ORP probe and give it a good scrub and clean and then test it against the ORP solution which shows 400mv@25c. So into the mesuring jug went the sachet and water and got it to 25c spot on and then in went the porbe and left to settle whilst i carried out some other chores.

I kept my eye on it watching it gradualy climb untill it got to 401 which it stayed on and never moved so i left the unit as it was.I must admit i was very happy with this so i then replaced the probe back into the filter chamber and again let it settle and the picture below was taken about ten minutes ago and as you can see not to bad.

Well i am happy with it :D

[img]http://www.koipix.com/gallery/albums/userpi ... G_2568.JPG[/img]

[img]http://www.koipix.com/gallery/albums/userpi ... G_2567.JPG[/img]
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Post by chita »

It usually takes a couple of hours for the ORP reading to climb back to it's peak reading after cleaning Gazza, so it'll likely be higher than that by the morn.

Chi
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Post by chita »

I just found this page whilst doing some research, and as some of the document originates with a vet and some with other leading lights of the hobby, I thought it may prove useful. As it coincides on many points with my own beliefs it may serve to add value to the thread. Certainly it seeks to explain the issues in a very understandable way, not always the easiest of things to achieve!

I hope some find it interesting or of use.

Chi
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Post by Gazza »

Chi,

Can we have a link or address please as i need some Valentine's day reading :wink:
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Post by chita »

Oh bugger!

Give me a mo Gazza, and thanks for your prompt also Bob!

I'll just backtrack and locate it again!

Chi
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Post by chita »

Thank the lord for the history button!

http://www.koiclay.com/page6.htm

Chi
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Post by Gazza »

Hi Chi,

Thanks for the link unfortunately its one i already have :roll: but you guys who want to know more have a good read very interesting and from a guy who knows his stuff :D
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