Ok Folks,
I have recently administered PP + HP to my pond to eradicate the old Tric. Seven days later and saw them flashing still, so another dose of PP + HP. First dose was left for 9hrs before it turned brown, second dose I left for 7hrs before adding HP. So my question is how many of you have PP + HP your pond and on how many occasions, this is not a question as to how many doses to rid the Tric but to find out what are the safe levels on the amount of times you can use this form of treatment before it has any adverse effects on your koi, and what damage be it gill or internal damage can it do.
PP + HP how many times
Moderators: B.Scott, vippymini, Gazza, Manky Sanke
I have applied KMnO4 at doses above 3 ppm in the past. I don't do it often anymore. Temperatures play a big roll in the dosage as well. Remember that at lower temperatures your filter might not be as resilient. Always better to dose lower and possibly repeat it again later that do one giant dose.
B.Scott
B.Scott
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Hammer
Hi Billy Boy
Have a read of this web site
http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/treatments/potassi ... ganate.htm
Pete
Have a read of this web site
http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/treatments/potassi ... ganate.htm
Pete
With reference to the link provided, I assume that as this information totally ignores the only correct and accurate method of P.P application, ORP / REDOX monitoring, it is dated and may lack accuracy as a result. I would advocate that those who are unfamiliar or lack confidence in the application of P.P read more recent resource information. Or you might consider following Duncans regime, which has been discussed on this forum previously.
If this is too time consuming then I believe Mark on Koichat can supply an adequate ORP / REDOX meter for a very fair price. Then apply a premix of P.P until a reading of 450 to 500 max is reached and keep it there for 4 hours before stopping with Dechlor or H.P. I would not normally reuse for 3 days, and at the same dosage. When using an ORP /REDOX meter add P.P slowly, having isolated filters first, then ensure the P.P is mixed in the pond water, I use a small net for this job. If you add too quickly it can suddenly go sky high, so steady does it.
If treatments are so maintained at 450 for 4 hours, accumulation damage risks are minimised and indeed very unlikely.
Were this not so then Dr.Roddy Conrads ritual weekly doses would have killed his Koi years ago!
The risks with P.P arise from overdosing, which is impossible to assess or monitor with even vague accuracy without an ORP / REDOX meter.
Chi
If this is too time consuming then I believe Mark on Koichat can supply an adequate ORP / REDOX meter for a very fair price. Then apply a premix of P.P until a reading of 450 to 500 max is reached and keep it there for 4 hours before stopping with Dechlor or H.P. I would not normally reuse for 3 days, and at the same dosage. When using an ORP /REDOX meter add P.P slowly, having isolated filters first, then ensure the P.P is mixed in the pond water, I use a small net for this job. If you add too quickly it can suddenly go sky high, so steady does it.
If treatments are so maintained at 450 for 4 hours, accumulation damage risks are minimised and indeed very unlikely.
Were this not so then Dr.Roddy Conrads ritual weekly doses would have killed his Koi years ago!
The risks with P.P arise from overdosing, which is impossible to assess or monitor with even vague accuracy without an ORP / REDOX meter.
Chi
Anyway, just cuz thet aren't dead doesn't mean they are healthy. 
Many koi will bleed at the gills and even through their skins/ scales when skittery, this is far from unusual. It does not necessarily signify that the fish are unhealthy, simply that they are not used to and or dislike something, it's a mild shock symptom, no more. Just as in humans with a nosebleed, it looks worse than it is, no harm is done providing the bleeding ceases in a reasonable time. In my experience such symptoms usually cease instantly or at worst within a couple of minutes once the koi are settled. If the gills were badly affected through P.P or any other treatment, bleeding from that region would be reduced I think rather than agravated.
I think also if the Koi weren't healthy Roddy would know, and despite not necessarily being a disciple I do believe he would truthfully report accordingly.
I think that we might do worse than refer to Duncan's writings here, which I cannot do directly at the mo as my sister has the book! From memory though and from my own observations over time, 450 is a good treatment level and a safe level for Koi, 400 being as high as one would wish to go on a permanent basis.
So the difference between ideal ongoing pond levels and treatment levels is not that great. So those with a very clean system, with good high ORP / REDOX levels need very little P.P to do the job. In fact I've seen koi killed because keepers fail to fully understand this relationship.
Any recommendation I make to P.P dosing should be interpreted with this in mind.
For example, I would always in my own pond, which has an ORP / REDOX reading currently of 388, premix P.P at the 1.5gr dosage into a watering can kept for the job. I add 25% of this premix at a time, spread over 30 minutes or so, in my own pond the first addition is usually sufficient to hit the 450 ORP / REDOX mark. This is far less than the 1.5gr dosage frequently specified, which unfortunately is as precise as it can be for the "average" pond. I would not panic if it hit 525 for a short period, but would not wish to see that level for more than a few minutes.
All of the above is impossible to guage accurately by eye, so the dosage and colour advice route has to be tempered with experience and caution if an ORP / REDOX meter is not available.
Chi
I think also if the Koi weren't healthy Roddy would know, and despite not necessarily being a disciple I do believe he would truthfully report accordingly.
I think that we might do worse than refer to Duncan's writings here, which I cannot do directly at the mo as my sister has the book! From memory though and from my own observations over time, 450 is a good treatment level and a safe level for Koi, 400 being as high as one would wish to go on a permanent basis.
So the difference between ideal ongoing pond levels and treatment levels is not that great. So those with a very clean system, with good high ORP / REDOX levels need very little P.P to do the job. In fact I've seen koi killed because keepers fail to fully understand this relationship.
Any recommendation I make to P.P dosing should be interpreted with this in mind.
For example, I would always in my own pond, which has an ORP / REDOX reading currently of 388, premix P.P at the 1.5gr dosage into a watering can kept for the job. I add 25% of this premix at a time, spread over 30 minutes or so, in my own pond the first addition is usually sufficient to hit the 450 ORP / REDOX mark. This is far less than the 1.5gr dosage frequently specified, which unfortunately is as precise as it can be for the "average" pond. I would not panic if it hit 525 for a short period, but would not wish to see that level for more than a few minutes.
All of the above is impossible to guage accurately by eye, so the dosage and colour advice route has to be tempered with experience and caution if an ORP / REDOX meter is not available.
Chi
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Gazza
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Hi Billy Boy,
Sorry it sounds you've had some problems mate
As Chi has said above the is the way to go and the best way is with an ORP unit that way you can be spot on with the dose.The only other thing i would say is make sure you have a good grade PP not household stuff as some are to weak and will not do the job.
Sorry it sounds you've had some problems mate
As Chi has said above the is the way to go and the best way is with an ORP unit that way you can be spot on with the dose.The only other thing i would say is make sure you have a good grade PP not household stuff as some are to weak and will not do the job.
hi boys
a lot of big koi bleed from the gill more often than smaller ones do, mof i dont think i have ever seen a small koi bleed from the gill have you?
indeed its a common traite with chags and ochiba's
its nothing really to do with PP exposure although it maybe will not help, but its to do with body mass V cell thickness, and is kind like folks having a nose bleed
the gill cell thickness between the the koi's blood and the surrounding water containing the O2 is only one cell thick * thats just one cell thickness* at no other point of the koi anatomy is the distance between blood and surrounding water that thin and so easy for things to get in and out, it has to be that way or it may as well not have a gill cuz it would be of no use, and what goes in in general can come out!
the koi is capable of varying its heart beat ( fast to slow)as well as the stroke ( deep to shallow) as conditions prevail
if you liken this to a car engine that will do 2000 rpm and rev to 5000 rpm now imagine if your engine could do this as well as vary the stoke of the piston to short stroke or long stroke, what a machine! this is what a koi does naturally
no other creature on the planet extracts so much O2 from so little available we had an O2 concentration in our air to deal with that was a low as a koi has to deal with we would all be dead, because in comparison to the koi we are crap at extracting O2 when compared to the koi we are pretty inefficient which is why when we go climbing at altitude we need oxygen supplement, the O2 is still there although at lower concentration, but nowhere near as low as the koi has to deal with but we cant deal with a saturation thats lower
dont forget the koi imploys a counter current method of gas exchange, we dont, which means as we exhale and inhale we are mixing fresh air with stale and taking a certain amount of stale back in, not so with a fish
as the koi grows bigger its mass grows and so does it demand fo energy and more importantly O2 so its gill mass grows to help but the cell thickness does not increase the cell at the gill is now the same density as it was more or less when the koi was a young snapper
when the koi gets stressed and its heart rate climbs and the stroke climbs something is gonna give, yup you guessed it! the gill
yes monitor PP with ORP meter i promise its the only way to avoid some heart ache at some point in you hobby
i little perspective for you when using H2O2 i was conducted a trial in a small vat i put 4ppm PP in and nuked it with standard H2O2 dose, the next day without any water change i put 4ppm PP back in and it turned brown on contact, i repeated this every day for a 5 days and it lasted no longer than a few minutes so it sticks around for quite a while
there are PP resistant trich about but i would suggest you maybe have soemthing else going on if you cant find any trich now
a lot of big koi bleed from the gill more often than smaller ones do, mof i dont think i have ever seen a small koi bleed from the gill have you?
indeed its a common traite with chags and ochiba's
its nothing really to do with PP exposure although it maybe will not help, but its to do with body mass V cell thickness, and is kind like folks having a nose bleed
the gill cell thickness between the the koi's blood and the surrounding water containing the O2 is only one cell thick * thats just one cell thickness* at no other point of the koi anatomy is the distance between blood and surrounding water that thin and so easy for things to get in and out, it has to be that way or it may as well not have a gill cuz it would be of no use, and what goes in in general can come out!
the koi is capable of varying its heart beat ( fast to slow)as well as the stroke ( deep to shallow) as conditions prevail
if you liken this to a car engine that will do 2000 rpm and rev to 5000 rpm now imagine if your engine could do this as well as vary the stoke of the piston to short stroke or long stroke, what a machine! this is what a koi does naturally
no other creature on the planet extracts so much O2 from so little available we had an O2 concentration in our air to deal with that was a low as a koi has to deal with we would all be dead, because in comparison to the koi we are crap at extracting O2 when compared to the koi we are pretty inefficient which is why when we go climbing at altitude we need oxygen supplement, the O2 is still there although at lower concentration, but nowhere near as low as the koi has to deal with but we cant deal with a saturation thats lower
dont forget the koi imploys a counter current method of gas exchange, we dont, which means as we exhale and inhale we are mixing fresh air with stale and taking a certain amount of stale back in, not so with a fish
as the koi grows bigger its mass grows and so does it demand fo energy and more importantly O2 so its gill mass grows to help but the cell thickness does not increase the cell at the gill is now the same density as it was more or less when the koi was a young snapper
when the koi gets stressed and its heart rate climbs and the stroke climbs something is gonna give, yup you guessed it! the gill
yes monitor PP with ORP meter i promise its the only way to avoid some heart ache at some point in you hobby
i little perspective for you when using H2O2 i was conducted a trial in a small vat i put 4ppm PP in and nuked it with standard H2O2 dose, the next day without any water change i put 4ppm PP back in and it turned brown on contact, i repeated this every day for a 5 days and it lasted no longer than a few minutes so it sticks around for quite a while
there are PP resistant trich about but i would suggest you maybe have soemthing else going on if you cant find any trich now
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Hi Gazza,
God you live and learn, never read anything about low grade PP before if it has been printed then I missed it DOH
. Who sells the pucker stuff then Gazza ??.
Hi Dave,
You are one top gent. Will give them a few days to see what kicks off then we may get our heads together on this one mate.
Thanks again
God you live and learn, never read anything about low grade PP before if it has been printed then I missed it DOH
. Who sells the pucker stuff then Gazza ??.Hi Dave,
You are one top gent. Will give them a few days to see what kicks off then we may get our heads together on this one mate.
Thanks again
Kusuri certainly have the good stuff, and I believe Duncan may have some.
I'd like to take this opportunity to expand on PP treatment, as there are numerous options according to requirements and current circumstance.
I said earlier that I would usually wait 3 days between doses, but that is not a hard and fast rule, just a safe one. I also said I'd leave the treatment active for 4 hours before stopping, again not hard and fast but safe.
There are numerous regimes which are effective and safe, much depends on the combination of preferences and the target(s). It's best to discuss PP treatments on a one off basis until you gain experience, or as I advocated stick to the safer regime. I have personally maintained the treatment period for 8 or even 12 hours on occasion, dependant on targets, fish (size) and pond specifics.
If you have Duncans book I think he covers it pretty well, I cannot say with certainty however as my sister stole the book whilst I was at the office, and has refused to answer the phone in the weeks since.
If you have any doubts then we can talk it through in detail before you dose, should you wish. I find this is best done on the forum, but without other posts until we have talked it through, as this can distract the would be user from some fine detail.
Chi
I'd like to take this opportunity to expand on PP treatment, as there are numerous options according to requirements and current circumstance.
I said earlier that I would usually wait 3 days between doses, but that is not a hard and fast rule, just a safe one. I also said I'd leave the treatment active for 4 hours before stopping, again not hard and fast but safe.
There are numerous regimes which are effective and safe, much depends on the combination of preferences and the target(s). It's best to discuss PP treatments on a one off basis until you gain experience, or as I advocated stick to the safer regime. I have personally maintained the treatment period for 8 or even 12 hours on occasion, dependant on targets, fish (size) and pond specifics.
If you have Duncans book I think he covers it pretty well, I cannot say with certainty however as my sister stole the book whilst I was at the office, and has refused to answer the phone in the weeks since.
If you have any doubts then we can talk it through in detail before you dose, should you wish. I find this is best done on the forum, but without other posts until we have talked it through, as this can distract the would be user from some fine detail.
Chi
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Gazza
- architeuthis moderator
- Posts: 5306
- Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:24 pm
- Location: Essex,UK
- Contact:
Hi Billy,
Yep i learn something new everyday to do with Koi keeping and i think thats one of the great things about our fantastic hobby
Have you tried this place i believe its pretty good :
http://www.koiquest.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=344
Good luck mate and please keep us posted
Yep i learn something new everyday to do with Koi keeping and i think thats one of the great things about our fantastic hobby
Have you tried this place i believe its pretty good :
http://www.koiquest.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=344
Good luck mate and please keep us posted
Hi Chita,
Very informative as always, I certainly went over the 4hr period 9 and 7 hrs but as it was getting late I administered the HP water was still pink in colour on second dose at 7hrs. Will hold fire until the weekend when I can keep an eye on them better. Another scrape before hand as you suggested.
Hi Gazza,
Thank you for the link, I will have to restock my medic chest with some of Duncans goodies.
Very informative as always, I certainly went over the 4hr period 9 and 7 hrs but as it was getting late I administered the HP water was still pink in colour on second dose at 7hrs. Will hold fire until the weekend when I can keep an eye on them better. Another scrape before hand as you suggested.
Hi Gazza,
Thank you for the link, I will have to restock my medic chest with some of Duncans goodies.