PP + HP how many times

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chita
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Post by chita »

Apologies Billy, I had not picked up on the fact you had the good sense to specify treatment times in your fist post, sorry for making you repeat yourself!

OK, what dose did you administer?

Pond volume and PP dose, so I can work it back will help me ponder specifics. Off the cuff I would say that if you stuck to the lower end of the possible dosage rates, ie. 1 to 1.5, and your pond is not absolutely clean with no or very low organics, all should be well. If on the other hand you have a very sterile pond, the Koi would not have liked it during the second dose at least, especially if a higher dose rate was administered.

Have you seen any signs of discomfort? You can discount any increased flashing etc during the treatment, this "can be" ( I can explain if required) quite normal if not accompanied by other adverse signs.

As you have not mentioned any obvious problems and intend to keep a close watch, all seems well at this point. One thing to watch with P.P. is that no koi swim into a cloud as you add it, this can and will hit individual koi and shoot up their gills. The same is true of extended exposure at higher levels than those I have quoted, so watch for any koi which start to hang near returns or even in corners for extended periods, the first sign of gill damage.

Obviously had you had an ORP / REDOX meter, most of this would be acedemic.

Incidentally, at those exposure times I'd not even bother the koi for another scrape, at worst the vast majority of critturs will have been reduced to a reconnaisance unit.

Please Keep us informed

Chi
Dandj
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Post by Dandj »

IMHO have a really good look for Costia as this seems to be able to survive repeated PP doses these days. IF found use FMG.
weldec
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Post by weldec »

Hi Chita,

Both treatments administered were 18mgr for 2,000 on both occasions it was still pinky purple when the HP was added. Hydrogen Peroxide x 2 @ 6% solution.

First two hours the koi went to the bottom but then started to surface but were not gulping for air, I had two Secho 40s running. But as you say Chita the koi were still flashing a few days after treatment this may be normal. For what it's worth I checked my readings last night:
PH 7.9
Ammonia 0 (tetra kit)
Nitrite <0.3 (tetra kit)
TDS 298

Have cut back on feeds for a while.


Hi Jane,

Its a possibility hope I dont need to go down that route .

Thanks anyway.
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chita
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Post by chita »

For clarification Billy, was that m'grams or grams?

Chi
Dandj
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Post by Dandj »

Is the nitrite reading the lowest that kit shows up? If memory serves me the Tetra kit is not very sensitive and that level is enough to make them flash.
Aquarium pharmaceutics liquid kit is really cheap and very accurate, almost as accurate as the more expensive Kusuri kit, which will register minute amounts of nitrite as a +ve result, someone tested it against a hanna mater and that was reading 0.04 mg/l with the Kusuri tablet kit showing the 0.1 mg/l. May be worth checking just how high the nitrite is as that may just be whats causing them to flash.
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chita
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Post by chita »

During P.P treatment koi will flash if they have parasites in any numbers, this is brought about very simply, by the death throes of parasites as they thrash around whilst dying.

Chi
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chita
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Post by chita »

Billy, no response yet to my previous request for clarification, so just to move things along I'll assume you dosed at 18gr for the 2000 gallons, giving 2ppm approx.

Which if your pond is very clean is a little high for two consecutive prolonged exposure doses. Excluding the purple cloud risk element, you'd be unlucky to have caused harm, but I would certainly watch closely for any signs of gill trouble. Unfortunately this often appears gradually over a few months or so and can therefore be attributed to something else at that time.

I personally would not have advocated the treatment regime you have undertaken, certainly not without intimate knowledge of the pond. Fingers crossed and I doubt many critturs will have survived the treatment, so I wouldn't disturb the fish for further scrapes at this point, let them settle.

Chi
weldec
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Post by weldec »

Hi Chita ,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

It was 18 milligrams per 2,000 gallons, but as Gazza stated having purchased it from the chemists it could have been inferior. Fish seem ok but will take your advise on board, but I do check them out every day.

Hi Jane will cetainly give those kits a try, who sells them .

Thanks again.
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chita
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Post by chita »

Billy, please check again, 18 milligrams? Or 18 grams, 18 milligrams would make little impression on 2000 gallons of water.

Chi
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Post by B.Scott »

Indeed 18 milligrams isn't something most people can even weigh. I have a pharmaceutical balance and even that is graduated in 5 mg at the finest adjustment. I think it safe to say it was at least 180 mg but like chita said this wouldn't impress even the tiniest parasite.
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Post by Dandj »

Hi Billy Boy,
As you are in Notts next time you are near Castle Marina call into ....dare I say .....Pets at Home! In their aquarium section they sell API test kits I think you get over 150 tests for £5:00. They have the GH & KH kit as well for about the same price. Failing that Bardill stock them - I think.
Just take any hint of purple as a +ve. I find the colour change from aquamarine = zero to purple/blue much easier to see than the kits that go from pale pink to not quite as pale pink.
"Testing Tips ( from API website)
This test kit reads total nitrite (NO2-) level in parts per million (ppm) which are equivalent to milligrams per Liter (mg/L) from 0 ppm to 5.0 ppm, in either fresh or saltwater aquariums. Other nitrite test kits that measure “nitrite-nitrogenâ€Â
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chita
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Post by chita »

I think many of us in the UK are institutionalised when it comes to measurement, and weight in particular. Too many 10's, 100's and 1000's to deal with, we are used to more definitive, memorable component numbers!

My own scales, iBalance 201's will weigh a maximum of 200grams in 0.01 divisions, but unless I'm treating an aquarium I rarely use the lower ranges. It will weigh in any of 8 outputs and has tare facility of course, it cost a small fortune and were I to buy one today I would not I think spend so much. Or I would opt for one with a greater weighing capacity and larger divisions, say 0.1 grams, though it is very useful for smaller doses.

As it happens in this case we can deduce that Billy means 18 grams, as the water would hardly have changed colour let alone stayed that way for hours. The only reasons for my labouring the point is that it's imperitive to have and to maintain a good clear grasp of measurements relating to treatments.

I can vouch for Jane's reccomendation of Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kits, I have Kusuri (Palin) kits for Ammonia & Nitrite but use A.P kits for everything else, including back up for the Palin kits.

Chi
weldec
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Post by weldec »

Hi Chita,

Typing without thinking is one of my many trates when in a rush :oops: .

Yes you are correct in your assumption it was 18 grams :oops: again.

But according to Janes report it should be 13.6 for 2,000 UK gallons.

I feel I need to try these test kit out and see if I can get a more accurate reading.
Thanks for the info Jane will call at Pets at Home and seek these kits out.

Chita, Gazza made a good point about EA,(WEED KILLER) I had applied a maintenance dose only last week and this may have cause some irritaion, would this have had any adverse effect with the PP, I must state at this point that a scrape was done gill & body and several small Tric were present hence the PP.

Thanks again Chita / Jane.
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chita
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Post by chita »

The discrepency arises due to determination of required strength, or simply, the ppm dosage required.

Jane's dosage would equate close to 1.5ppm whereas the dose you've applied is nearer 2ppm.

I would rarely reccomend a dose above 1.5ppm, and frequently rather less will do the job, for example in very clean water or where extended exposure is practised, as in your case. Because of your higher dosage rate coupled with the extended exposure, I made two statements, it's unlikely many critturs survived and watch the fish closely for signs of gill damage, this still holds.

As to the EA BW treatment, I wouldn't use it if it was the last product available, it's utter rubbish and dangerous.

If you monitor your water before and after use you will see around a full 5 point drop in PH, say from 7.0 to 6.5 at least, frequently greater depending on water conditions. This alone is more than enough to make the koi flash, a lot, as they do not like such large and rapid downward movements in PH. As if this weren't bad enough, it also erodes the KH just as fast, so anyone with a nice lowish PH had better watch out, this stuff can crash PH big time, it's poison. It certainly should kill BW, in the hands of a new hobbyist it could also see off the koi.

Adding P.P. to this situation would not go down well with the fish, but at least you are now aware of the situation. Check the pH and KH, get the Ph to at least 7.5 and KH to at least 4 for a while, a little bicarb will soon do that if it's necessary. If your PH and KH were high to begin with, say PH 8.0 and KH 10, you will not have to worry about buffering, just watch the koi and make sure they are comfy as they recover from the PH drop and the potential compound effect of the P.P.

Don't hesitate to shout if you see ANYTHING unusual or that you are not happy with.

Chi
weldec
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Post by weldec »

Hi Chita,

From :( To :D after :shock: and also :oops: plus :roll: has led me to :idea: I'am :lol: instead of :cry: so thank you for giving me the :wink: as I'am no longer :? .


PH is a constant 8.0, It did dip to 7.5 when Blanket weed treatment was added :( . Will certainly let you knbow if anything untowards happens


Thanks again Chita 8) .
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