Fish not eating for quite a while and mouth open

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lbt
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Fish not eating for quite a while and mouth open

Post by lbt »

Hi

Summary : Our largest fish (18") hasn't been visibly eating pellets for a while (1-2 weeks). He's not closing his mouth fully.
Image

We have a fair amount of plants in the pond and he has eaten them and algae from the walls in the past so we've been keeping an eye on his behaviour and not seen anything too untoward.
He's been as active as normal; swimming well and socialising. He does hang around a bit when the rest feed but doesn't move to take anything himself.
He's now showing signs of lethargy and we're getting quite worried.

The rest of the fish are eating really well.

He's got no visible signs of damage, infection or soreness and a scrape this morning showed no parasites.
(The scrapes are sparse as he's not got much mucus although he feels slippery and looks healthy)

This morning we got a proper look at his mouth which looks healthy too (ie not sore or ulcerated) but when we took him out into a small tank we saw he didn't appear to be closing it all the way - I looked inside but could see no obvious blockage.
I gently put my little finger in his mouth and he spat out what looked like algae but I couldn't feel anything else. Microscopic examination of the spit-up showed nothing moving.
Image

Today (2 kits so some figures are duplicated)
pH : 7.2 / 8.0
Ammonia: 0 / 0.1
Nitrite: 0 / 0
Nitrate: 0 / 0
GH: 125
KH: 220
Chlorine: DPD4 rapid in 10ml: possibly the faintest hint of not-white but almost undetectable next to a reference clean water. Tap water goes very pink (First time we used this, thanks MS :) )

Some background:
The pond is 12000litres with about 40 goldfish/koi. Most fish are 3-6" long with 4 koi at about 12" and one at 18"
We now know it's very underfiltered with just a small pressure filter but water quality measurements have been very good (see above)

The main thing we notice is that there's a lot of silt on the pond bottom.
A couple of months ago we began to research and design a new filter system.
Three weeks ago we added a K1 moving media filter as an additional biological filter stage.
We're in the process of doing some building works nearby (preparing to add a Dracodrum filter) over the last 2 weeks but with the skimmer we're keeping dust out.
Nb - the work has been mainly digging clay so it may have stressed the fish slightly but should not have contaminated the pond.

Three weeks ago we got Duncan's book and a microscope and used it to positively identify skin flukes which I treated with a single dose of Flubanol.
Around this time was when he stopped eating. Our vet was a bit worried about the flubanol affecting the other fish so we were especially vigilant for changes and it seems unlikely that we'd have missed a connection.

Anything else I can tell you?

David
lbt
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Re: Fish not eating for quite a while and mouth open

Post by lbt »

Update: He's definitely swimming with a bit of a head-down position.
He'll swim quite actively but when he stops momentum carries him forward in a head-down attitude.
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Re: Fish not eating for quite a while and mouth open

Post by Airlite »

Hi David, I don't have any experience of this (or much else for that matter) but have you considered sedating the fish for a proper examination of his mouth/throat to see if there's anything lodged further in? It sounds like a physical issue rather than one caused by the usual culprits but I'm guessing it's not good for the fish and will probably be the cause of more stress related problems in due course. Hopefully Dunc, Manky or one of the other members will see this and be able to offer provide a more experienced opinion and advice on what steps to take next. I'd be interested to find out what's going on so please keep us up to date. Hope you get it sorted. Regards, M
lbt
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Re: Fish not eating for quite a while and mouth open

Post by lbt »

Thanks :)

We had considered sedation but were hoping to get some advice before just jumping in. If we don't hear anything else we'll try that next.

We have some clove oil and have just ordered some 2-Phenoxyethanol from Duncan - not sure which is best/safest though.
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Re: Fish not eating for quite a while and mouth open

Post by Manky Sanke »

I've never had to deal with such an issue but I recall Paula telling me about something similar where she anaesthetised a fish and found that the lower jaw was dislocated. She then described how she manipulated it back into position. I wouldn't like to try to describe the procedure but it would do no harm to anaesthetise the koi for a closer look to see whether the jaw can be manually opened and closed as normal.
lbt
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Re: Fish not eating for quite a while and mouth open

Post by lbt »

Thanks Manky

It seems clove oil is a safe way to do sedation.

I found this: http://www.pondkoi.com/forum/index.php?topic=1600.0

Which seems to be quite detailed.

Please yell if you have any reservations.

We have a holding/capture pen in the main pond which we just transferred him to.
One thing we noticed is that when we put him in he went vertical and couldn't seem to orientate himself for 3-4 turns.
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Re: Fish not eating for quite a while and mouth open

Post by lbt »

So the sedation went well but we found nothing :(

We used 15 drops of clove oil in 3 gallons of water and used Duncan's "support him using one hand" advice to check he was out.
It didn't take long - probably only a couple of minutes.
(Aside - he did come round a bit whilst we were examining him but we put him back in for 30s and he was quiet.
I'd probably give him a little longer in the oil bath next time to make sure he stays quiet for longer.)

The inside of his mouth was a nice healthy white and I could see all the way back to his throat with rough skin at the back.
The gills were a dark red colour and I could see out of his mouth when looking back through them.

His mouth is normally open like this:
Image

Using my finger it was easy to close it like this:
Image

I couldn't extend his upper jaw - I tried but didn't want to force it and don't know how much effort is normally required.

There were no signs of damage or infection on his body although his anus looked a little red - I'm not sure if this is abnormal.
(Sorry the picture is poor)
Image

As I mentioned there is a definite head-down attitude when he stops swimming - around 45deg.

Recovery from the sedation was straightforward.

He's been a little agitated since the exam but otherwise behaving very much the same.

We'd be much more comfortable sedating him again if we need to do any more checks or take more pics.


Given the lack of any specific diagnosis or other suggestions I'm thinking of a 4 hour Chloramine T bath at 20ppm to address viral/bacterial infections (and to avoid treating the pond because at the moment the other fish seem fine).
We have hard water and pH is high so that is acceptable (according to the book).
My reasoning is that a physical jaw problem (if there is one) shouldn't be causing the buoyancy/attitude problems so there's something else amiss.
It's only been 2 weeks without food which is not long enough (as far as I understand it) to have any real adverse effects on a bigger fish.

Thoughts please? :)
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Re: Fish not eating for quite a while and mouth open

Post by Duncan »

hi guys
sorry been away for a few days for a break

yes this looks like a physical dislocation and may need carefully manipulating back into position
the upper mandible is part of the head and does not move only the lower mandible moves

you need to look at gill movement the gill and mouth move in unison one needs the other to work

i did an article on this some time ago go here to see it

http://www.koiquest.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... 29&t=11567

if you go here to see a little movie i did of this action http://www.koiquest.co.uk/gill.mp4


dunc
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Re: Fish not eating for quite a while and mouth open

Post by Manky Sanke »

Blimey Duncan, I was feeling rather pleased with myself for a similar diagram I produced to demonstrate how fish respiration worked but that was just a diagram and you've well and truly trumped me with your video. I'm off for a little sulk, back later..... :cry:
lbt
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Re: Fish not eating for quite a while and mouth open

Post by lbt »

Thank you Duncan

That's very informative. I'll see if I can do anything to boost the aeration of the pond.

As it happens I took a video of him breathing before we sedated him and I've uploaded it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vlt33kz ... e=youtu.be

Also, as it happens, I got given Lee Burroughs's name by Tony (DracoDrum) and by Liam at Imperial Koi so I called him yesterday and he's coming to see the fish on Tuesday.

I'll point out this reply to him since he was in the original chat back then :)

This morning he's the same - if anything the head-down position got worse on friday but then seemed to improve somewhat during saturday.
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Re: Fish not eating for quite a while and mouth open

Post by Duncan »

well the good thing is the lower mandible is moving so dislocation is still possible but ???? unlikely is my guess but could be wrong
if its head down all the while try for gill fluke or costia

duncan
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Re: Fish not eating for quite a while and mouth open

Post by lbt »

So Lee came around and did a health-check on the pond and everything was spot on from a water quality PoV. Oxygen was good too (and we measured first thing in the morning).

He scraped 4 fish and found just 3 costia overall; no other parasites and no signs of any problems on any other fish.
He said this was not enough to warrant treating the pond.

Physically Skullface (the sick fish) was a little lethargic and quite easy to catch but showed no physical signs of any problems.
He confirmed her (Skully is apparently a she) mouth was clear and her jaw moved well. He couldn't get her upper lip to extend but again didn't want to force it.
When she was released she spiralled (horizontally) several times.

The head-down attitude improved a bit yesterday.

Lee suggested that there was a swim bladder problem which could now be improving and which he thought wouldn't be directly treatable.
We discussed feeding her peas but the problem is that she's still not eating.

This evening she was fine as we fed the other fish but then suddenly she started to swim in an agitated manner and for the first time we've seen she began spiralling on her own.
As we watched her for 10 minutes or so she swam in tight circles a few times - always to her right - and on a couple of occasions swam into the wall.
When she did swim to her left she spiralled a bit and then started swimming right.
I think I mentioned in an older post that we wondered if she had sight problems as she has been bumping into things. Her eyes are totally clear though - no milky or opacity look at all.
There was a bit of a 'twitch' to her movement and I wonder about something neurological.

We realise that if it's an internal thing then our options may be limited but if there's anything we can do then it would be good.
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Re: Fish not eating for quite a while and mouth open

Post by Airlite »

lbt wrote:.... and I wonder about something neurological.
Hi Dave, that's an interesting point.

Dunc, do fish have strokes?

M
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Re: Fish not eating for quite a while and mouth open

Post by Duncan »

Airlite wrote:
lbt wrote:.... and I wonder about something neurological.
Hi Dave, that's an interesting point.

Dunc, do fish have strokes?

M
not to my knowledge but they do have a very complex circulatory system much more complex than say ours there are all sorts of tricks and truns and shunts around things so it may be possible i just never heard of it

three costia god give me strength did he name them ? :D

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Re: Fish not eating for quite a while and mouth open

Post by lbt »

Thought I'd post an update although it's not good news.

She's lost a lot of orientation control now. She's "swimming" sideways with her right side down almost all the time.
A fair amount of the time she's floating at the surface or on the bottom and she has vertical orientation issues too.
Her fins are all active and she can right herself a bit but she's not always making the effort - I guess she's exhausted.

A couple of days ago (after a call to Lee) Maya mushed up some peas and fed them to her on the off chance that there was some constipation (unlikely after not eating for so long but...). I was out of the country so it was a 1-girl job and not much got in.

We've seriously considered euthanasia however her mouth is moving more normally now and when she's moving she seems to be sucking up debris from the bottom and blanketweed too. Her gills still look a good red colour. She won't even look at sinking food going past.

Current plan is to try the peas again soon and hope that it's a swim-bladder problem that will rectify itself before she gives out.
It's hard to know when to call it a day and euthanase her as she doesn't seem massively distressed but how can you tell?

David
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