On going problems during 2012/2013

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On going problems during 2012/2013

Post by DaveB »

As anyone can see from my previous posts, I had a few problems the last year or so. Nothing I could put my finger on except the obvious. Gill Flukes. Now I realize it is difficult to be sure of 100% iradication due to them being egg laying so taking that it to account. I treated 3 times with flubenol over last summer and apart fom the last time only to see them return.
Now thinking back there was definitely something else going on. And not what you would call an infestation. Prior to actually finding the gill flukes all the koi were just not right and only one was showing the classic signs of gill flukes ie head down and swimming without actually going anywhere. As I was not 100% sure that it was only gill flukes and perhaps it was something else as well, possibly bacterial. I decided to hit the pond with a 3 day course of CT.
As I live in a soft water area, It was necessary to increase the p.H using bicarb, as the CT dosage was quite high. Immediately on raising the K.H. The koi showed signs of improvement. It was duely noted that at that time the P.H. Swing was a bit high for my liking 0.6.
A coarse of CT was carried out and again there was further improvement in the koi and no evidence of flicking was seen at this time. 7 clear days later a dose of flubenol was given just to make sure that the rest of any flukes would be killed.
Afterwards as I allowed the K.H. and the p.H to lower to normal, the koi began to look stressed again especially the shiro ( the one which the gill flukes were found) again the flunctuation in p.H. Was around 0.6. I immediately thought that this am/pm swing was what was causing my koi to becomae stressed and thereby allowing the flukes to gain the upperhand.. In an attempt to rule this out it was necessary to raise the K.H. To lock the p.H at 8.3. This took huge amounts of bicarb, something which I was reluctant to do. This started me off wondering if I had enough air and not driving out the CO2 during the evening. In the mean time it was necessary to once again treat the pond with flubenol.
Once the temperature started to drop to 18 degs the koi started to look much better and I have since made sure that no debris is anywhere in the system. I have also added quite a bit of p.H buffer in the form of oyster shells and natura shell. This maintains a k.H. Of 21/2 d.H. With a constant rickle 24/7 of supply water K.H . 11/2d.H.
During the periods whilst having the above problems I noticed that my ORP levels where on the low side even taking the increase in p.H. By adding bicarb. Into consideration After thoughly cleaning the filters, once again the ORP levels would increase to normal. ( perhaps over active or dirty filter)
Due to the koi not looking 100% , but would improve after giving the pond another dose of CT . I began to suspect that my problems where bacterial and with a combination of a fluctuating p.H. Is what caused me so much trouble. Over the last few years I have had one or two koi with a bit of fungus, usually on a wound after taking a knock and have also whilst treating a koi on accation has developed fin Rot. The pond is 16 years old and I have done as much as I can maintenance wise. The pond is currently covered and the koi are looking very well at a temp of 15 deg and a p.h swing of vertually zero. So will be waiting until next year to see if the problems return.
Hope you find this of interest and any input would be appreciated. Best Regards Dave
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Re: On going problems during 2012/2013

Post by Dave Collins »

Hi Dave,

Interesting one this. What are your normal pond pH and KH? As I run RO I've in the past taken the pH down to 6.8 but the Koi didn't like it. They went right off their food. I now run the pond at pH 7.2 - GH 1.5 and KH 2.0 with a TDS of about 110. Result: happy Koi
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Re: On going problems during 2012/2013

Post by Gazza »

Hi Dave,

A good read and it will be good to see how the fish do come through the winter and lets hope you have a better year with less problems.

Do you think there is anything you could/would change that could help,filter,pump,turnover ?
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Re: On going problems during 2012/2013

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Dave Collins wrote:Hi Dave,

Interesting one this. What are your normal pond pH and KH? As I run RO I've in the past taken the pH down to 6.8 but the Koi didn't like it. They went right off their food. I now run the pond at pH 7.2 - GH 1.5 and KH 2.0 with a TDS of about 110. Result: happy Koi
Dave. Nice to hear from you again and keeping an eye over the forum. Sorry for the late reply as I have been on holliday. I currently run my pond at a similar tds 114 which is normal for my pond. the k.H. is currently 3 d.H and G.H. is 4 d.h. The supply water k.H is only 1 d.H. Prior to problems developing, the supply water had a k.H of 1.5 d.H. Since then I have had problems with a fluctuating p.H. hence I am now raising the K.H with naturashell ( from Lincolnshire fish health) My currnet p.H. is 7.4 and is fairly steady with a less than 0.1 swing. However the pond is currently covered so expect the fluctuation to rise once the covers are removed.
Having exhausted every avenue I can think of, I am now looking for areas where I might have debre lieing, hence my post on clearing a bottom drain,I also expect the K.H. to deplete when I increase feeding and the more water I need to change. This having a knock on effect on p.H. stability.I am also considering fitting a garden sail over the ponnd to reduce direct sunlight as my problems also coincided with removing shade in the form of a large Tree.
Once again I am guessing at why I should have so much trouble last year and do not what to accept that it is just one of those things. Too many little things can lead to to a lot of problems if you get what I mean.Best Regards Dave
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Re: On going problems during 2012/2013

Post by Dave Collins »

Hi Dave,

Good idea having a holiday in winter when the pond is quiet :D

Following on from my own problems I'm sure that part of your problem is down to the low KH. In my case the pH was stable but too low, since I've held the KH at 2dH and the pH at 7.2 they are back to normal (my stress levels too).

After the winter period when I start raising the pond temperature, I use half doses of Virkon Aquatic for 3 or 4 weeks to reduce the bacteria count whilst the Koi's immune system is catching up. Does it work, always difficult to prove but up to now I've not had to resort to treatments.

As you say, it could be a combination of little things adding up to give you problems. Give the Virkon regime a go and buy a 15Kgs sack of bicarb and your Koi will be happy :D

It's a shame that the forum is not as busy as before. I don't know why but most Koi forums seem to be quiet, it is winter of course. A lot of people just watch and don't bother posting. I've heard people saying that Facebook etc is taking over but I think there are less and less Koi keepers around. Koi keeping is what I call a closed hobby, once we've built our pond and bought our Koi then there is not much to talk about.

Having said that I'm fitting my new Drum filter next week :)

Keep us informed Dave
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Re: On going problems during 2012/2013

Post by DaveB »

Dave I have also been looking at Virkon tablets @ 1 tablet per 1000 gallons but have not taken the plunge as yet. For the moment I am currently staying away from the bicarb but have a 25kg sack standing by. I have also considered using clay to perhaps steady p.H but unsure if this would work and also which clay to use.
I have been reading a lot about drum filters and can see the huge benifits ( I am assuming this will be prior to a Bakki Shower) One improvement I have made since having problems was remove my old TT with Lava rock and replace it with a BHM Bonifide Bakki shower. I immediately had a rise in nitrates which I assume is expected ( until the BHM matures) I thought my problems maybe the lava rock being blocked up. I have also doubled the flow rate in the hope I will drive out any CO2 levels. Now 5000 g/hour.This I hope will have another stablizing effect on p.H .
It would be interesting to hear how you get on with the Drum filter so keep us informed on how it goes. Thanks again for the imput Dave. Best Regards DaveB
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Re: On going problems during 2012/2013

Post by Gazza »

Hi Dave,

I would keep away from adding any cleaning tablets as IMO not a good way to go bit like a band aid to be honest and can cause more problems in the future. I know people used to like this type of way bit like Ozone but not really for use on koi ponds.
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Re: On going problems during 2012/2013

Post by DaveB »

[quote="Gazza"]Hi Dave,

I would keep away from adding any cleaning tablets as IMO not a good way to go bit like a band aid to be honest and can cause more problems in the future. I know people used to like this type of way bit like Ozone but not really for use on koi ponds.[/quote Hi Gazza, thanks once again for your input.]I agree that to add these on a perminent basis is probably not the way to go, but until I find out why I am having these problems I am not so sure.For a few years now I have aslo had one or two cases of fin rot especially when I have treated koi. The virkon tablets would help to clean this up in my opinion. I do wonder though what would happen once started and when to stop. Best Regards Dave
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Re: On going problems during 2012/2013

Post by Gazza »

Hi Dave,

I knowe'veve probably done this before but what is your set up can it be something silly here where waste is collecting in a filter or something :?:

When you say you have raised the flow rate in what way and is the filter able to cope with this flow :?:

Not wanting to tell you how to suck eggs just thinking about starting at the beginning to see if its something silly we have missed.
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Re: On going problems during 2012/2013

Post by DaveB »

I don,t mind giving my details as I maybe missing something obvious( a bit like not seeing the wood for the trees syndrome)
I have been thinking on the same lines as yourself regarding debre in the filters, so much so that I have removed the grid/shelf from the bottom. The filters are moving K1 so nothing gets trapped anywhere. The final chamber is now a combination of oystershell and naturashell which is heavily airated. This is also cleaned on a regular basis. This last chamer is a recent modification ie moving K1prior. and the problems where before I made this modification.
My other modification was the year before when I removed my BB3 off my skimmer and pumped directly over my TT. from the same skimmer. This is where I thought might be where my problems lay. My thinking was that once the BB3 was removed the dirty water woulld eventually block up the holes in the Lava rock and become anearobic. I then made another modification and changed my TT to a all singing dancing BHM shower. Prior to this my flow rate from the skimmer line was supplied by a superfish 20.000 ltrs per hr. As I understand there is a differnece of opinion on the whether or not a Bakki shower needs prefiltration. As I only have a skimmer basket+ a pump strainer I thought that I would need a higher flow rate to ensure that the BHM is flushed clean so added another skimmer and doubled the flow rate (now two spray bars all with new pipework)
This modification was also done to try and solve my problems. I can,t really think of anywhere else I may have debre accumulating. I have even cleaned out every piece of pipework except the bottom drain pipework. Perhaps things might improve after making the above changes and things just need a bit of time to adjust, especially when renewing media( although I never detected any ammonia or nitrite during the change over)I really thought I was making a change for the better when removing the BB3 . The only other place I trap dirt is my vortex which has a homemade easy screen which does a pretty good job of trapping fines. To ensure this is totally cleaned I remove the media altogether and give the bottom a thorough clean every month.Not sure if this is necessary but do it anyway.This primary source of mechanical filtration and is the only one, now that I have removed the BB3. This does keep the reasonable clarity but not as good when I had the BB3. Hope this gives you a better understanding of whats going on. Best Regards Dave
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Re: On going problems during 2012/2013

Post by Gazza »

Hi Dave,

That all sounds OK to me mate should work OK.
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Re: On going problems during 2012/2013

Post by DaveB »

update on above problems,
I have recentlty remeoved my covers and immediately the p.H swung 0.38. During a very sunny day. Prior to removing the covers I have fitted 2 shade sails which block out over 50%-70% of the shade during the day. I am also maintaining a current K.H of 3 d.H. I have noticed the swing on a test kit is much less but is detectable.
I sometimes wonder if this is just a natural swing and I am worrying about nothing. At first I was worrying if I had high levels of CO2 but the swing would not be in the region of 7.5 to 7.9. I have checked with CO2,P.H & K.H charts and the CO2 is always low. I also do not beleieve I am overstocked. 13 koi in 5500 gallons. I do wonder if as the sun becomes higher in the sky the swing will get worse. The only thing I am not doing is actually airating the pond. but the amount of air going in the filters is enormous and also have a shower turning the total pond volume every hour. Any more ideas folks. Best Regards Dave
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Re: On going problems during 2012/2013

Post by Manky Sanke »

Dave,

It's pretty clear that photosynthesis is causing the pH variations and a varying pH is a cause of stress in koi. As you have correctly stated, stress impairs the koi immune system leaving them less able to resist bacterial or parasite infections.

Photosynthesis by algae or blanket weed doesn't affect pH directly. What happens is that, in the presence of light, plants, algae or cyanobacteria absorb carbon dioxide from the water to make the sugars and starches that they need in order to grow. (I'll explain how photosynthesis works in a bit more detail if anyone would like me to).

When carbon dioxide is dissolved in water, it forms carbonic acid. By absorbing dissolved CO2, the plant or algae is removing an acid from the water. That makes water more alkaline which is the same as raising the pH and the mechanism works like this:

Carbon dioxide dissolved in water forms carbonic acid which causes a weak downward force on the pH. With a low KH there will be very little buffering against pH variations and so any changes in downward force on the pH due to greater or lesser amount of dissolved CO2 when the KH is low will cause a greater variation than would happen with a higher KH.

When there isn’t any light, plants etc stop removing CO2 and switch back to normal aerobic respiration which means that they take in O2 and give off CO2. This increased output of CO2 that is released into water dissolves and makes more carbonic acid which, as just described, has a downward effect on the pH.

That's why your pH varies more when the pond is exposed to light than it does when it is shaded. There is an increase in dissolved CO2, which lowers the pH, during the night followed by a reduction in CO2 which raises the pH again when it is light. The brighter the light, the more photosynthesis that occurs and the variations in dissolved CO2 become greater. By increasing the KH, what you are doing is increasing the ability of the pond water to resist variations in pH caused by dissolved CO2.

There are a few ways to decrease or remove these variations:
Remove all trace of algae, blanket weed and cyanobacteria which is easier said than done and I presume you have done all you can in that area.
Increase the KH which, as you've already seen, will damp down the variations but will also tend to take the pH towards 8.3 / 8.4.
Reduce the level of dissolved CO2.

You can decrease the amount of dissolved CO2 by increasing aeration. O2 saturation isn't quite the same as gassing off an unwanted gas such as CO2 in this case. You need good aeration in order to get O2 levels near to saturation and the fact that you're aerating water to that degree will also gas off CO2. That much is true. It's also true that a dissolved gas will make a slight reduction in the actual maximum amount of O2 that can dissolve although you might not be able to measure the slight difference.

So the extra aeration won't noticeably increase your O2 value but it will help drive out CO2.

Water quality is a big factor in susceptibility to disease or parasite infections because of the stress it causes. Variations in pH cause stress because koi have to change their blood chemistry to suit the pH of their environment in order to maximise the efficiency of the way they take up O2 and dump CO2. Koi can adjust to a wide range of pH values but they can't do it instantaneously so if the pH varies too far and/or too fast, koi can't keep up with the rate of change and that leads to stress. That's what limiting the maximum variation in pH to 0.2 per day is designed to protect against.

It’s well known that stress reduces the immune response but I was surprised by the results of some research conducted at the University of Tennessee that I picked up a couple of weeks ago from my latest koi bacterial disease course at Koi Organisation International.

There were three groups of channel catfish. The first group was allowed to swim freely in their tank. The second were confined in a cage suspended in the tank for 30 minutes in order to subject them to moderate temporary stress before releasing them to swim freely. The third group was confined for 60 minutes before they were released in order to cause a higher degree of temporary stress.

After that, all groups were exposed to the same measured amount of a type of bacteria that is particularly infectious to them.

Of the group that were not stressed, 20% died.
Of the group stressed for 30 minutes, 50% died.
Of the group stressed for 60 minutes, 80% died.

There are more details about measured cortisol levels caused by stress if anyone is sad enough to want them. However the percentages that succumbed to a bacterial infection after varying amounts of a simple stress caused by confining them for a short time gives one of the clearest examples that I've encountered of just how much the immune system is compromised by stress .
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Re: On going problems during 2012/2013

Post by DaveB »

Thanks Sid for reminding me how all this photosythis effects the co2 levels and carbonic acid levels. Reducing this seems to be easier said than done. I have only just removed my covers so the pond has probably got less blanketweed and algea than it ever will have. At the moment I can even see the coating on the side. The water is also crystal clear so very little algea either. I currently have 280 ltrs of air going into my filters and 40 ltrs in the pond on a timer to come on during the hours of darkness. I do not believe that I am overstocked having only 13 koi in 5500 gallons.
Being in a koi club gives me access to a number of other koi keepers who run ponds with similar stocking densities and similar source water ie low K.H. Not one person I know buffers with bicarb to the extent of locking the p.H. at 8.3. Last season I tried this and it did work however it need large amounts of bicarb especially when I am just diluting it with trickle in 24/7
At the moment the koi are looking far from stressed and yet the P.H. is still swinging aroung 0.3 slightly more on very sunny days. I have read different readings to what swing acctually would cause stress, anywhere from 0.2 to half a full point. I just wonder what would be the p.H swing in a heavily planted lake or a lake which is green with algea.
My other concern has been the build up of debris due to any dead areas, however I have taken great pains to ensure this is not the case., the only area I cannot be 100% sure is the bottom drain pipework, hence my previous post on how to clear it if it were partially blocked. At the moment there does not appear to be any head loss in the filters or reduction in flow rate of the pump.
I have heard mentiond that p.H can be stablised by using Hydrolyte
http://www.rsminerals.co.uk/30.html as a buffer media and will also work at lower p.H levels similar to lithaqua, what I cant get my head around is it does not contain any carbonates or bicarbonates.Only magnesium.So have my doubts that it would help in my situation, just the same as anything else I have tried.
I sometimes wonder if I didn,t have a meter and only used test kits, I probably wouldn,t notice, however it will be interesting to see if my problems return again this season.
I appreciate your input Sid and any other ideas are gratefully recieved . Best regards Dave
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Re: On going problems during 2012/2013

Post by Airlite »

Apologies for reviving an old thread chaps. I've been trying to find out some information on why pH levels might vary throughout the day. Dave's post above almost exactly describes my current situation.

From being blissfully unaware of any pH fluctuations from a rock steady 7.5 using my test kit/colour conversion chart almost since my pond settled down after building last year, I inadvertently caused a spike by submerging a quantity of limestone gravel chips a couple of weeks ago. I noticed the increase almost immediately but it took me a one or two days to realise what the cause had been and to remove it from the pond. During that process I purchased a pH monitor to ensure that I could rely on an accurate reading in future, but since using it I've noticed some big swings in variation which I'm currently trying to fathom out.

For example, last night at 10pm pH 8.38. This morning at 9am, pH 7.99. Now, at 13:10 the pH reads 8.56 :(

I've done a series of 10-15% water changes, probably that amount every two days for a week to try to stabilise or reduce the pH to 8 or below but without success so far. The fish seem fine through the day and are feeding hungrily when I chuck in their grub. I've noticed one or two flashing now when the temperature starts to drop away late on in the evening but can't figure out whether this is due to the pH or temperature variation. For information my other parameters seem to be fine (as you'd expect with that amount of water changed) with no noticeable presence of ammonia, nitrite or nitrate. Phosphate is high but always has been and is the same as the ambient mains supply coming in, and my dechlorinator unit is ok providing I literally just trickle in (which I do 24/7).

To mitigate any dissolved CO2, I'm blowing as much air in as I've got from a new Blagdon Air 50 plus what gets sucked in from the filter outlet's venturi. The sun is out, same as it was yesterday but I'm not sure about the photosynthesis explanation because last week it wasn't and I was still getting these swings. I've got no blanket weed problem to speak of but I do have a small veggi "filter" in the "stream" as much for aesthetics as any aid to filtration. I've removed as many of the limestone chips as I could find the biocenosis baskets, there may be half a dozen or so fragments which I couldn't easily find/remove left in each of the six baskets I've left in the pond but no more than that I would say. I've put the baskets back in to mature but was thinking of removing them again temporarily to see if this has any effect.

I'm conscious that I could be changing too many things at once and the pond is trying to find it's equilibrium but I'm also aware that these rapid changes aren't doing the fish any favours so my question really is this; have I missed anything? How come I'm getting such big swings in pH value and what else can I do to get it under control?

Appreciate any guidance you guys have to offer. Thanks in advance, Mick
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