Soft Water, pH etc...

[benyiii]

Would be interesting to discuss this subject from a slightly different aspect. We often talk about the TDS of mud ponds in japan etc etc. But it would be quite interesting more for a point of interest rather than any debate on the merits of soft water to go a bit more into pH.

Specifcally how the pH varies through the year as we assume japan - soft - pH around the 7 mark but presumably its not constant at all but rather quite variable from overstockled concrete holding pond to entering the mud pond. Looking at the mud pond season this pond must surely also go through a transition as the organics buildup over time, it goes through the rainy season, the addtion of oyster shells and then particularly heavy feeding at the end. Further to this its always subject to the availability of water and this too must have an impact on the actions required by the breeders and so the water.

Be interested to here any thoughts on the subject...

Ben

[ageinghippy]

Hi Ben,

I think you have the order round the wrong way really. The koi fry go out to the mudponds in the early springtime, after the ponds have been suitably prepared over winter and filled with pure snow-melt water from the natural springs.

They are then left to grow on, being fed numerous times a day from auto feeders, till the autumn harvest time when they will be netted and brought to the greenhouses for final grading and sorting.

It is now that the koi go into the `overstocked concrete holding ponds`to await visits from the dealers/hobbiests with their cheque books. Hopefully they wont be swimming around in the holding tanks for too long, but they no doubt appreciate the more than adequate filtration systems the breeders have installed to keep the water nice and the VERY large water changes every morning.

Hope this helps


Chris (another one)

[benyiii]

Depends which way you look at it

What I m trying to get at is the variability of the pH through out the year and specifically through the season in the mud pond...

[Duncan]

i'll see if i cant mikey to asnwer this but basically most japanese ponds are total loss systems water is diverted in at the top and expelled at the bottom and the water coming in is very soft from the mountains but mike will give you more info

dunc

[Gazza]

Hi Ben,

Yes Duncan is correct in that the systems they hold the fish in are basically holding takes which run on a total loss and they don't always spend that much time in them as they are hopefully sold

If a fish is to be kept on they will then be split up and go off to the breeders better and sometimes secret facilities and also out into the mud deepening on the time of year and with the ponds being so big and again water can be a total loss the PH would normally be fairly stable.

Lets hope we get Mikey boy to post and put me right as i am sure he can explain it much much better than this old Muppet

[Mike Snaden]

Hello Ben, & all

Well, here is a brief rundown on mud pond pH...

Mud pond water is basically the softest water you will ever come across, with Niigata being the softest of all the areas of Japan. Even Japan's hardest water areas are still extremely soft compared to what we in the UK regard as 'soft'.

After Koi are harvested in the Autumn, the ponds are allowed to refill over the winter, and since there is no biological loading until the Koi are put in, the pH is at it's highest in Spring when the Koi are first put out. Mud ponds generally run between a pH of 6.8 to 7.2 ish. They can be very slightly higher than this, and in the rainy season can run a little below this. During the rainy season (second half of July, into early August), the rain tends to be a little acidic, and rather than throw oyster shells into the mudponds (which will later mess up the pH), the breeders will simply cut back on feeding, or simply suspend feeding altogether, unless it gets dangerously low. The breeders generally refrain from adding Oyster shells, as once the rainy season has passed, the pH can ride too high, which limits the Kois appetite, and hence feeding, as well as making the colour too red, and skin turn a tad yellow in some cases. It's better to 'ride it out', and then just feed heavier once the rain has passed. The pH will generally run an average of 7.0 after rainy season has passed, though when the feeding is suspended just prior to harvesting, the pH will rise slightly because the acid loading on the pond has lessened.

It's worth pointing out here, that the above applies to a 'mature' pond that has been running for at least two seasons. A new mud pond, is always a failure in the first year, and not quite so bad in the second. We can cover this in more depth later...

Food for thought... Take a look at these articles... One is on mud pond chemistry, the second is moreso about the pitfalls of mudponds, and why we can achieve better with our own ponds if we put some effort into it. The third is a study of TDS effects on growth...

The article titled 'Testing Time in Japan' was inspired by other people (predominantly dealers) thinking that the reason the mud ponds work, is because of 'mineral rich water' when in reality it is 'mineral devoid'. The trouble lies in a few areas... Most dealers can't communicate directly with the breeders because of the language barrier, so get very little answers. In addition to this, the breeders are very un-scientific in general, and hence, take their water for granted without actually understanding it. When I tell breeders what UK water is like, most of them (the few that understand it) are mortified! Those that think their water is 'hard' have no idea what we regard as 'hard'! The trouble is, that once in a while, talking to breeders can result in the 'Yes, my water is hard' answer. But, I figured that the only way to put this whole thing to bed, was to test EVERYTHING, rather than just take the breeders word for it. Those breeders that we tested, were very intrigued in the results I found with their water. Of course, having used RO for about 9 years now, I was able to furnish the breeders with answers to why their ponds ran the way they did, and what the impact on the Koi was. My explanations made sense to them then.

http://www.yumekoi.com/images/stories/pdfs/TestingTimeInJapan.pdf
http://www.yumekoi.com/images/stories/pdfs/MudPondMyth.pdf
http://www.yumekoi.com/images/stories/pdfs/hefintds.pdf

One further note... For some reason, people seem to think that soft water, and low pH results in Koi that aren't suitable for Koi Shows, or react badly to the water at Shows... this is complete tosh. Raad, who won Mature Champion, grew his Kohaku from Nisai, to become 81cm at 5 years old, and incredibly beautiful! This was with Summer-only growth, and no feeding in WInter whatsoever, and Summer temps of 24c. His pond runs at 70ppm TDS, and pH of 7.0. He also won Adult, and Non-Gosanke Champion with a Kohaku, and Tancho raised in the same water. John Hellens won GC, once again, with a Koi raised/kept in soft RO water.

Best,

Mike.