dechlor help

[dagsteve]

ive been using a three pod dechlor unit,the cartridges are from a well known supplier
they are removing the chlorine and copper from my tap water,but by removing the chlorine from the chloramines,
it allows the free ammonia into my pond
i have a hariwake that is suffering and a chagoi that died yesterday,the koi appeared in good health until then
im guessing i had a large dose of chlorine/chloramines in may as my filters really took a hiding

im going to return to using dechlor
ive read about amquel etc,but this would upset the readings of my test kits,and also pond treatments?
do the newer types of dechlor contain anything more than thiosulphate?
thanks

[Gazza]

Hi dagsteve,

I think i would be looking at why this has happened and making 100% sure before changing anything.

How old are the purifier filters and what flow can they take

Has anything else in the pond or system changed or any new fish

What are all the pond parameters and have you done a scrape

[dagsteve]

the purifier is is relatively new,i tested for this almost as soon as they were fitted,i phoned the company and they confirmed free ammonia
my paras are ph 8.0,always 8.o

amm 0.1,this morning
nitrite ,0.25

the koi have been scrapped etc,nothing found recently
pond hasnt been treated
k1 turning white again

pond is heated to 23.5
feeding has been light recently.

[dagsteve]

im not having a dig at the purifier people
they havnt promised anything other than what they are suppling

im just not happy to allow the free ammonia into my pond,as somehow its effecting the filters and koi

ive bought some jbl stuff,i hope i can use the purifier and dechlor alongside eachother with better results

[Duncan]

hi , I don’t know what to call you so its Steve till you say otherwise

You are quite right chlorine and ammonia = chloramines and that if you take out the chlorine element out you are left with free ammonia the same this is the same if you use a dechlor (S/T) or a purifier.
I seriously doubt that there is sufficient free ammonia in your water supply after chlorine removal for several reasons

1. the are legal limits set on British potable drinking water usually set at 0.5PPM ( parts per million) max! these limits are strictly adhere to and have to be enforced

2. water purifiers don’t deal with chloramines very well because its a more complex molecule than plain chlorine so not very much is removed at all

3. I have never seen anyone including me run a purifier at a slow enough rate to make any chloramines removal possible usually less than 1 GPM and even then its doubtful if you will make much impact on chloramines

4. Last but not least the amount coming through would although being present would be so minimal you filters should cope.

In all my years I have never heard of anyone killing fish from ammonia in tap water after chlorine removal because chlorine removal with purifiers is so poor and the amounts of impurities contained are so small. chlorine deaths yes as you would expect, but not ammonia. Which is why my carbon purifier is the size of a large O2 welding bottle, it can take the throughput but even then i doubt its removing it all

Ok if you take the sodium thio option. If you do this and you do indeed as you suggest have lots of chloramines, you will end worse off than when using a purifier from the ammonia stakes because S/T WILL remove all the chlorine and release all the free ammonia that it contains there is no question about it so you have two option you use amquel or a formalin based ammonia neutralizer the latter you can do yourself but be aware. Test kits don't see the ammonia after treatment with either the formalin based or AmQuel treatments . The salicylate based tests will show zero, the nessler will show garbage this has nothing to do with the ammonia but due to chemical reactions with the residual compound that is produced. Which In the case of the formalin based treatments is ammonia becomes Methyl Amine . “”HCHO + NH3 CH3NH2 (Methyl Amine)””

1PPM Formaldehyde will neutralise 1PPM of NH3 which is a lot of NH3 in a pond or drinking water, our typical dose of 10ml formalin to 150 gallons is around 17 PPM. So airing on the side of caution .75 ml to every 150 gallon will do the job for 1ppm ammonia

In both cases the nitrogen from the ammonia is still available for your bio filtration

If it were me I would get a water report from your water company and as you say you have lost fish start loosing into other possible root causes there may be some other reason for this.

[dagsteve]

thanks duncan,and yes you can call me steve

thanks for the insight into formalin
i understand and have read that the small amount of free ammonia wont harm the koi
waddys constant trickle is obviously proven and makes sense
although ive read that mathamatically all is not lol
i think i read this on this sight

my small growing tank 550 gallons,is used over winter and i havnt had any problems at all
i reasoned ,the demand for water is less during this period and less amm is added
perhaps metals are more of a problem than first thought,although i was told that i had higher than normal copper reading,but not high enough to warrant a metal cartridge
my readings are well under control
i just cant understand my k1 whitening at different points throughout the spring and summer
and i have developed a water change fobia

[dagsteve]

ive been looking at dechlors
some are simply thiosulphate,some are hydroxymethane sulfanate,amquel included
some claim to bind chloramines,bind metals etc
the tetra,prime dechlors appear to be exellent ,bind etc,are they hydro-sulphanate?
does anyone know if these effect the test?
or simply do all dechlors effect test results?
im hoping dechlors like the tetra and prime have moved on from amquel

thanks

[dagsteve]

its been suggested to me that thiosulphate removes copper
would this be correct?

[Duncan]

i would love to respo9nd but if you have been reading my adventures on chit chat my eyes at this time are like pee holes in the snow and blinking horrible < pun intended> give me a day or two

dunc

[dagsteve]

no problem duncan,you get your head down

i think id rather invest the hard earnt on the best,bestest dechlor
and understand whats left in the water,and if this can be removed

[dagsteve]

ive carried out water changes everyday ,to see the response from the koi
all seems well
jbl the company that makes the dechlor im using returned my email and confirmed that its thiosulphate,how would it bind chloramines then?arrrhhh! they also added it would not effect my test kits
from what ive read,it leaves me back were i started,would the bound stuff not show up,what would my ammonia test show?
ive tested for copper from source and can not get any reads
is copper used to treat water at any point,or would the only copper i have to worry about be from pipework etc

[roselanekoi]

Hi Steve,

After hearing of a case where someone lost 18 koi from chloramine poisoning after putting them in a newly built pond which had been filled through a purifier fitted with new cartridges, I've been concerned about how poor my purifier was at removing the chlorine when chloramine is added to the water supply. Sodium thiosulpate will remove the chlorine from chloramine in an instant but then you are left with the ammonia.

I've been adding Amquel Plus lately as this is supposed the neutralise the ammonia as well. Only problem is, as Duncan said earlier, it does seem to effect my Hanna meter readings so unable to test the results. Amquel use sodium hydroxymethanesulfonate as its active ingredient and it's the hydroxymethane bit that takes out the ammonia according to their website which is very comprehensive.

http://www.novalek.com/kordon/amquel+/index.htm

I did read somewhere that the ideal ratio to produce chloramine is 6 parts chlorine to 1 part ammonia, I suppose if that is correct then for normal water change purposes the ammonia present would not cause a problem if you have a mature filter.

Colin

[dagsteve]

thanks colin,that just how i understand it

im not happy with my sourse water,ive used cheap 3 pod purifiers in the past alongside thiosulphate
the last two years ive been hit by i imagine ,a large dose of chlorine/chloramine that my routine could not handle
i mixed the thiosulphate to cope with 5ppm as i am aware is the maximum dose
so i bought the more expensive cartridges,all was fine until around a few weeks ago when i noticed that my filters appeared cleaner
then i started to get amm readings,not high,but enough to stop my feeding
ive always struggled with water changes,it makes my koi flash etc,and one koi really didnt enjoy the experience
when i built my pond i had the worst NPS imaginable,i took all the usual precautions when filling
my brother who lives 200 yards away has simular problems,he used the large blue bottle type purifier,he too is currently using JBL dechlor
okay i could stick and put up with it as it stands but i want my koi to thrive not survive
my koi do appear happier at the moment,time will tell

[Duncan]

before you start filling in tooo many blanks this is from the drinking water inspectorate which states our water is less than <1ppm chlorine and in most cases bristsih water supplies are set at 0.5ppm thats half of 1ppm or half a mg/l which while they admit they shock treat now and again for stubborn pathogens they try to endevour that less than 1ppm and no more will reach your taps

from the DWI

Chlorine
What is chlorine?
Chlorine is the most widely used disinfectant in the home. It is also disinfectant used by the water industry to maintain hygienic conditions within the public water supply network of pipes. At the very low levels used in drinking water it is perfectly safe. Much higher concentrations are routinely used safely for other purposes such as sterilisers for baby feeding bottles and by the leisure and health care industry in spas, hydrotherapy pools and swimming pools. The reason why chlorine can be a concern in drinking water relates to the fact that some people can be very sensitive to its taste and smell. The following information explains why you may notice a chlorine taste or smell in your drinking water and what you can do if you are particularly sensitive.
What do I do if I notice the chlorine in my water?
The level of chlorine in tap water is very low in England and Wales which contrasts very favourably with practices in other countries where much higher levels are common. Typically water companies keep the level of residual disinfectant in the form of free or combined chlorine to 0.5 mg/l or less. However sometimes during maintenance of the pipe network higher levels are needed. If you occasionally notice a slight taste or smell of chlorine it is probably due to maintenance work in your area, it will not be a long lasting problem and there is no cause to worry. BUT, if you notice a particularly bad or strong smell or TCP like taste which makes your tap water unpalatable, or you notice a smell or taste for the first time which does not go away in a short time, then you should contact your water company immediately. Enquiry and emergency numbers are listed under WATER in your telephone directory or on the back of your water bill.
Why use chlorine?
Water is safe when it leaves the treatment works and the trace of chlorine is there only to preserve the high quality of the water as it passes through the miles of pipes used to convey water to homes and workplaces. Chlorine has a long history of about 100 years of safe use for hygiene purposes worldwide.
Why can I taste or smell chlorine in my water?
There can be minor variations in the amount and the form of the chlorine present in each water supply. Water companies set the levels as part of the safe management of the whole network.
Drinking Water Inspectorate, 55 Whitehall, London, SW1A 2EY Tel: 030 0068 6400
E-mail: dwi.enquiries:defra.gsi.gov.uk Website: http://www.dwi.gov.uk
For this reason if your property is located near to the water treatment works the level of chlorine may be a little higher in your tap water than it is at properties several miles further away. Water companies are required to have in place a residual disinfectant management policy designed to ensure a minimum level at the remotest part of the network whilst also ensuring the maximum level is still acceptable to all consumers. The operation of a water distribution network is a complex task and occasionally levels of chlorine are not optimal. If you do not like the smell or taste then a simple way to remedy the problem is to cool the tap water before using it for drinks. Place a jug with a lid in your fridge for a short period but always remember to throw away any unused water after 24 hours and clean the jug regularly.
Are these low amounts of chlorine harmful?
No. The World Health Organisation has set a health based guideline maximum value of 5 mg/l for chlorine as a residual disinfectant in drinking water. The levels in tap water in England and Wales are well below this guideline and most water companies aim to keep the level below 1 mg/l. Your water company will provide you with a free water quality report showing the maximum and minimum level of residual chlorine in your local water supply on request. You can also look up minimum and maximum levels of residual chlorine in water supplied by each water company on our website here.
What else can I do if I am sensitive to tastes or smells?
Cooling tap water in the fridge is all that is needed. However, if you wish you could always try using a simple jug filter with an activated carbon cartridge. If you do decide to use a filter, or you have a modern fridge which has an integral water judge fitted, then you must follow all the manufacturer's instructions carefully. Not doing so can give rise to contamination and hygiene problems. You can find more advice on water filters here.
Remember........
 Always use freshly drawn water for drinking or cooking, taking it from a cold water tap supplied directly off the water mains. This is nearly always the cold tap in your kitchen.
 When no water has been used in the house for several hours, draw off a washing up bowlful before using water for drinking. This will ensure that you do not drink water which may have been standing for a long time in your pipes.
 Do not use hot water or water from your bathroom taps for drinking or cooking because it usually comes from a storage tank in the loft and is not as fresh or as safe as water directly from the mains.
 If you notice a particularly bad or strong smell or TCP like taste which means you cannot drink the water then this may indicate a problem with your home plumbing arrangements and you should contact your water company so they can investigate and give you advice on how

[Duncan]

hi

also this is my purifer the two carts either side on the input and out put sides are 10" for scale thats a 2 gallon watering can at the bottom

im sorry but a 10" purifier just wont cut it with a reasonable sized koi pond you need soemthing more robust and this is it but even then i still dont think they handle chloramines very well