formaldehyde and paraformaldehyde information

[Duncan]

hi all

true to my word i have the sample fish which is a kohaku around 55 cm up to 1oz per gallon well i will by tonight

its in the q system typical water with no uv and i have not cleaned it so the organic load is typical

tomorrow its getting a double does of 38 % formaldehyde i say double because are freinds in the queens old outposts ( the colonies) across the pond typically use double what we do our normal dose is 12 ppm aprox and the yanks use 25-50 ppm

i am also making some paraformaldehyde cuz when ive finished the formaldehyde trial its gonna get some paaraformaldehyde with salt

but while making the paraformaldehyde i stummbled
across an interesting detail with formaldehyde so i quickly changed the formaldehyde to my current sale stock and will run the test again give me a day or two for the results of this test its its true

dunc

[tomy2ponds]

Hi Duncan I will be watching with interest

[Duncan]

hi OK

i have had a 55cm kohaku sitting in 1 oz per gallon salt with 12 ppm formaldehyde our standard formalin dose with is 10 ml to 150 gallons

fish and tank doing fine after 36 hours ther next dose will be 10 mil to 75 gallons approx 25 ppm a double dose keep you posted on this one

the big discovery is this i wanted to make some paraformaldehyde so i could photograph the difference to show those who did not know what it looked like. i know prolonged exposure to chilled conditions would do it but i wanted to make it fast so.... i decided to freeze it! the reason for this in recent discussions on this subject it was quoted that Andy Goodwin an eminent virologist said paraformaldehyde is formed in old formaldehyde stock no surprises there or "if it was allowed to freeze" unquote again i had no reason to suppose other wise , it seemed a reasonable assumption if it was indeed a direct quote

so put some in the freezer compartment in a suitable container 24 hours later and measureing minus 21 its still dont even look like its freezing so i got the MSDS sheet it took some time to find one the listed the freezing point they all have the flash point at circa 50 odd degrees c but not many the freezing point but the freezing point is listed at - thats minus 92 c so somehow i dont think anyone is just casually going to allow this stuff to freeze unless loiquid nitrogen covers allowing it to freeze

so it was reliable info then? looks like i have to do it the long way

http://www.surgipath.com/us-en/downloads/ProductDocument/msds.buffered-formalin-concentrate-5.pdf

[Gazza]

Hi Dunc

I have no idea why i always think of you as a mad professor who tests things to destruction

I have to say that i am just like yourself i believe the best way to find out how things work it to get hands on and do it...............just goes to show what a great teacher you are mate.

[tomy2ponds]

thats minus 92 c

Hi Duncan where does is freeze then Siberia looks like another myth busted

[bicolormoth]

Duncan , you have lost me mate . what are you trying to do? are you trying to 'spoil' some formaldehyde , or disprove that it could spoil while sat in the garden shed in winter.?
and what are you doing to the kohaku? what are you expecting to happen to it? is this fish sick at the moment?
sorry for all the q's but your post has left me baffled, but intrigued as there must be something important behind all of this, or you wouldn't waste your time doing it .... would you?

[dagsteve]

i think were've missed something

[Duncan]

Duncan , you have lost me mate . what are you trying to do? are you trying to 'spoil' some formaldehyde , or disprove that it could spoil while sat in the garden shed in winter.?
and what are you doing to the kohaku? what are you expecting to happen to it? is this fish sick at the moment?
sorry for all the q's but your post has left me baffled, but intrigued as there must be something important behind all of this, or you wouldn't waste your time doing it .... would you?

Russell, i wanted to demonstrate the difference between good formaldehyde and bad formaldehyde AKA Paraformaldehyde which is highly toxic

as formaldehyde deteriates in the cold and forms paraformaldehyde i thought i would freeze it to achieve the same but faster only to find it dont freeze there sprobab;y nowhere on the planet where you could freeze it which is a myth well and truly busted

also in the thread below this which is locked as it got bad tempered the old argument about using salt with formalin/formeldehyde raised its ugly head i only recommend the use of formalin when the salt content is 0.15 or below but the marine guys use it with salt water fish and their content is 3.5% so as there seems to be no definitive recommendation i decided to test it to death if need be

there is nothing wrong with the kohaku but there would be no use testing it as gazza says to destruction if there was anything wrong with it, cuz if it died we would not know if it died of a problem other than what we were testing for

like it or not somethings have to be sacrificed if need be to further our knowledge in order that these rumours dont persist

dunc

[bicolormoth]

okay, cheers Dunc. will be in teresting to see the results.

[Duncan]

well the kohaku is doing just fine after 3-4 days in salt at 0.6% and a standard formaldehyde dose 10 ml to 150 gallons but at 38% concentration

i dont see anything adverse is now going to happen so saturday i will either increase the salt or double dose the formalin

what say you guys?

dunc

[Gazza]

Hi Duncan,

I suppose its half a dozen of one and six of the other as depending how the test suggest goes if it stays OK you will have to do it again in the opposite way.

I say go for the Formalin as there is plenty of salt in there already.

[Duncan]

thats my thinking too

if it survives the next bout its time to introduce MG oxalate so we can cover several bases at once

trouble this fish has not been fed for a while so i need to make haste

dunc

[tomy2ponds]

Duncan the myth buster

[Davej]

Hi Duncan

Could the formaldehyde and salt adverse reactions have anything to do with depleted O2 levels?

Dave

[Duncan]

Could the formaldehyde and salt adverse reactions have anything to do with depleted O2 levels?

hi dave its entirely possible but not in this case cuz im keeping the O2 to a minimum i have one air stone in there with a tiny pump so its not being boosted im trying to replicate worse case scenario so nobody get caught out unawares similarly i have not used fresh clean water i have tried to replicate real world organics

but when i go to 25PPM dose it could be potentially stripping 2.5 PPM /mg/l of O2 out

dunc